Iran, get nukes fast!

Originally posted by Spartakus What abuses?

denial of ethnic identity, banning civic organizations of the minority, persecution of individuals belonging to the minority, forced deprivation of citizenship, intereference in the religois affairs of the minority, police surveilance, restrictions on freedom of speech, ...

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/Greec991-06.htm#P225_ 36797

 

Edited by bg_turk

Originally posted by Cunctator  It is only the direct application of US influence on the EU that led to Turkey being invited to begin accession talks, because no European country wants them to join.

Aren't you overstating the influence of the US over the EU? With anti-Americanism rising around the EU I would say US support for Turkey actually had precisely the opposite effect - it made Turkey seem like a US Troyan horse. Besides if Turkey is to ever become a member of the EU it will be because of the interests of EU states, not American influence.

It was the US who protected the Kurds after the first Gulf War and pushed the UN into authorising the no fly zone over northern Iraq.

And it protected them with Turkish authorization. The no-fly zone was enforced from the Turkish base in Incirlik.

(By the way, at that time, Ankara would have been quite happy to just watch all the Kurdish refugees in the north starve on its borders rather than let them in. )

Aren't you a bit unfair here? Turkey did accept and let in many  Kurdish refugees during Saddam's brutal reign and particulary the Halabja massacres. I do not think the starving of Kurdish refugees on the border was intentional. It is very hard to deal with humanitarian disasters of such scales - take the example of Albanian refugees to Macedonia during the Yugoslav campaign, only that the Turkish southeast is far poorer.

By the way, Leonardo, not all Kurds are PKK, but Turkish policy towards the Kurdish people has certainly helped the PKK recruiting efforts.

I agree with you. As a member of a minority myself I too find the Turkish policies against Turkish citizens of Kurdish origin unacceptable. In this respect I support the EU's attitude regarding the issue of minorities. I only wish that the EU did not only focus on Turkey, but paid some attention to the abuses in current EU member states like Greece for instance.

Originally posted by Pacifist Originally posted by LeonardoTurco "it is you insulting me and the whole Turkish population at large, who are a honnorable people". We Turks are no more "honourable" than other people.  And I totally disagree with you saying that we love other cultures and have no prejudice against them. This can't be farther from the truth. Most Turks hate Israel (anti-semitism in Turkey is widespread for example) and the West. We are certainly not less prejudiced towards other cultures than Westerners or other people - we all have our good and bad sides..

Well said that! Once we all acknowledge our flaws we can start fixing them. If we ignore them, or even deny them, they grow.

-Akolouthos

Originally posted by LeonardoTurco "it is you insulting me and the whole Turkish population at large, who are a honnorable people".

We Turks are no more "honourable" than other people.  And I totally disagree with you saying that we love other cultures and have no prejudice against them. This can't be farther from the truth. Most Turks hate Israel (anti-semitism in Turkey is widespread for example) and the West. We are certainly not less prejudiced towards other cultures than Westerners or other people - we all have our good and bad sides..

 

 

Edited by Pacifist

Thanks for your participations, you've all been helpfull for my desire to know you better, and as a certain truth emanates from a dialogue, I've heard enough to draw my own conclusion. I have not had the time to read the last couple of contributions but I will read them.

May peace reign the world and all countries enjoy sovereignty.

Regards.
 

Akolouthos,

I wouldn't get too upset by anything Leonardo writes here -- much of it is silly and is probably just venting. When he writes this: "You killed innocent people in Iraq and Cyprus, treat Kurds and Cypriots like subhumans, you provoked civil war, in fact you are yourself the demon you try to portray others," you cannot take him very seriously. This is coming from the self-appointed spokesman for a country that is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Armenians, tens of thousands of Kurds, and is slowly "cleansing" itself of the last ethnic Greeks in Istanbul/Constantinople.

I understand the Turkish position in Cyprus ("no more Cretes" Rauf Denktas used to say), and their concern about Kurdish autonomy in northern Iraq, but the rest is just ranting. No country has supported Turkey more in the last 60 years than the US. It is only the direct application of US influence on the EU that led to Turkey being invited to begin accession talks, because no European country wants them to join. When, during the Iraq war, only the US cared enough about Turkish security (despite Ankara's atrocious behaviour) to push NATO into taking action to honour its defence treaty. It was the US who protected the Kurds after the first Gulf War and pushed the UN into authorising the no fly zone over northern Iraq. (By the way, at that time, Ankara would have been quite happy to just watch all the Kurdish refugees in the north starve on its borders rather than let them in. ) By the way, Leonardo, not all Kurds are PKK, but Turkish policy towards the Kurdish people has certainly helped the PKK recruiting efforts.

Earlier, I used the word "silly" with reason. Any Turk who implies that his homeland has a better record as a defender of human rights than the US or just about any Western country is just oblivious to history. The Ottoman Empire/Republic of Turkey have fascinating histories, but let's not bend facts.

 

Originally posted by LeonardoTurco Answer: They all wanted to be seen as either superior (Italian example) or the legitime successors to prestigious Eastern Roman emprors (Charlemagne) or making their own the prestige of other culture (portret under Art of Triumf).

A far more probable reason for architectural elements being transferred is that people simply thought they looked cool, grandeur, beautiful or whatever.

Now why did I say this if it's not typical American.  Well, appart from your monumental neo-classic architecture, you have the Statue of Liberty which I think makes a reference to the Colossus of Rhodes. The United States thinks it owns liberty and democracy but you forget you used another culture's reference!

SearchAndDestroy

While I value your contributions as you let me understand your perspective, (thanks for your being serious and sincere) I can't afford to answer all your post now and I think these discussions  are not supposed to last this long and to border the ridiculous like it has with me and Akalouthos.

I will elaborate briefly on the use of architecture as a tool for legitimising your authority, which I think you partly answered.  Every authority wants to be regarded as 'official',  meaning  they're 'legitime', architecture as a form of making your own another culture's prestige.

This is a widespread practice and not typical American. I will give you an example in Europe:
Why can you find taken out of context pieces of Ancient Greek tombs built into the buildings of some Italian cities? Or did Italian take pagan elements to the iconography of new Rome? Why were Kings often portreted under an Arc of Triumf even if the Arc is not part of their culture? Why did Charlemagne seek to reintroduce classical elements in architecture, and make the church in his palace look like the the churches in Constantinople? 
Answer: They all wanted to be seen as either superior (Italian example) or the legitime successors to prestigious Eastern Roman emprors (Charlemagne) or making their own the prestige of other culture (portret under Art of Triumf).





Edited by LeonardoTurco

I'm really confused, why are you saying we have a huge ego? I'll admit we do sometimes, mostly in sports or about our military, but I don't think US citizens think they are better or superior then anyone. Atleast I never heard that. Many Americans are very proud of their ancestral backround which comes from all around the world.

And what do you mean Americans claim we are the heirs to Greek civilization? While more Americans would probably be able to point out Greece then Turkey, I highly doubt they know anything about Greek History, nevermind architecture. I think in sixth grade we talked about a few ancient civilizations and then moved on. History and geography is not something big in the US and students don't think it's essential. Sorry if it upsets you that Americans can't find Turkey, but to be honest is has nothing to do with ego's.

European artists who flee for WOII who all contributed to innovate a truly original identity. e.g. in architecture.

We started using Classical Architecture, like that of ancient Greece way before WW2. And I believe this influence came from the British who used it in their Architecture way back. It has nothing to do with us trying to claim any Culture, but was done to make the Government buildings to look for official I guess you could say.

Since you're so ignorant of Turks, which is the result of bad education, you're so easily mislead by what cinema shows you, who portray Turks as ugly and terrorists, hatefull press associating Turks with genocide, rapers, invaders, oppressors of ethnic minorities, etc, you become hatefull without you're even realising it. I read things that I find truly insulting but you don't understand what is the matter.

Why are you getting so personal? Why does it even matter whether Americans can find Turkey on the map or not?

And what are you talking about Americans portraying Turks as evil? I think there was one movie where Turks were portrayed bad, or atleast thats the only one I heard, "Midnight Express" I think it is. I never saw and only heard about it on these message boards. The only movie I saw with Turks is "Murder on the Orient Express", which if I remember right, the Turks weren't even the bad guys in it. Other then that I don't remember seeing any other form of media about Turks.

You're the world's most powerfull country but you need cultures around the world to enrich you and breezes of fresh air because you can't recreate what people have done during thousands of years.

lol Why are you trying to down play the US so much? Like I said, I'm sorry if Turkey isn't well known amongst Americans, but it's not because they have such huge "EGO's", it's that the American system doesn't put history first. Americans don't even know their own history, which is part of the reason why people see us as having huge Ego's, they think we win every war we went and go into because our history isn't studied and very few Americans keep up with current events.

You think you're 'most civilised' and the legitimate inheritors of Ancient Greeks with your official buildings a la Greca and Statue of Liberty

Well I believe most Americans know the Statue of Liberty was built by France and given a gift to us. And most Americans don't really think much of it, it's usually considered a Icon of New York.

But to me you're more like a little fish that comes out of the water and sees the world for the first time.

Well I don't think the Americans, or us "little fish" really care to even "get out of the water" to see the world to the first time. Americans are leaving little time for themselves as time goes on, becoming work aholics. Alot of Americans get one to three weeks of vacation time every year and the number of Americans that take this time is constantly shrinking. They are starting to work later and are even working on weekends. Obviously alot of Young Americans could careless about whats outside of their own "world", and Adults who should be more concerned with politics and current affairs are having less time for even themselves.

I think education has alot to do with it, and with Bush's no child left behind program, schools are cutting our history further back to make way for math, literature, and science I believe. So it seems our History courses are only going to be getting worse.

And not to knock on you Turks, but you guys are always claiming a bunch of histories of your own, always saying how great your military is and the US should never mess with you Turks(or atleast I read this a few times in threads about the Iraqi war). And then in here your telling me that Americans are claiming histories and cultures of other civilizations? Now I'm not denying that maybe you Turks are telling the truth, but if you read these boards, and there are alot of Americans, you'd see we don't claim anyones history, and that we are proud of ourshort history as it is.  If you read our messages, you'd see that we all disagree and agree with certain issues. We even put down parts of our government all the time. That sounds hardly like we have a ego. I don't even think we say that we are superior to anyone else outside of Military, and thats only with a few countries, where we debate whether we can take on larger countries or not.

The reason Americans don't know much about other countires outside of North America is because, in away it doesn't concern Americans. They want to work and have fun if they have the time. Americans are more concerned with cars and sports it seems then politics and history.

 

Edited by SearchAndDestroy