Relationship bw Bulgar and Iranian Langua

Oh, hot-doggie, you're back? Or I'm back actually. Just for a short visit...

Btw, you're right - Anton should've read Ibn Fadlan more thoroughly! Indeed he mentions the Sakaliba, which some reseachers connect with the Slavs. But he mentions the Bulgars separately from them, just as he mention the Turkic people separately from the Bulgars.
And we do feel proud with our distant cousins. Distant, because, after all, we were Slavicized and they haven't. Although we're all using our alphabet! But we don't speak so much about them, as (alas) our information about them is pretty scarce. Those Russians are still calling them Tatars and till the recent past they wouldn't let any word about them reach us! But now we're ready to make up for the lost time...
Oh, and the name Bulgars doesn't derive from Volga, which was called Itil back then. And, afaik, neither does the name Volga derive from Bulgar, although that might actually be just Russian information...

You should read Ibn Fadlan a bit closer because such a confusion is not made.

Originally posted by Bulldog Apparently there are a million Turks in Bulgaria, are these descendants of the Central Asian Bulgar's?

    Ottoman descendants mate ottoman

Originally posted by Bulldog Apparently there are a million Turks in Bulgaria, are these descendants of the Central Asian Bulgar's?

Apparently there are a million Turks in Bulgaria, are these descendants of the Central Asian Bulgar's?

Originally posted by tsar Socrates mate ...... the bulgarians do not have much to do with mediteranian people who were already living there. In south eastern and eastern bulgaria yeh there might be more mediteranian influence. But amongst the Bulgarians the dominant gene is EU7 ..... Germany has the largest percentage of EU7 (37.5%).... and clearly influence in germany is not mediteranian .......the that suggests that serbs, bulgarians, croats are more arayan than slavic which i dont beleive   ..... we also have 12% of the HG3 wchich is most comman in poland. we dont even look mediteranian,mediteranians have darker skin than us.

Originally posted by the Bulgarian I don't know why blue and Bulgarian Soldja insist so much on not having anything to do with the Volga Bulgars as if they were ashamed of it. What's the matter with you two, they are owr relatives, grandsons and granddaughters of owr own grandfathers - the Bulgars. Which clearly makes them family, well at least genetically. On the other hand we haven't interacted with them for 1300 years and owr cultures are totally different. But still, we have common blood running through owr veins.

Why be ashamed of the Volga Bulgars and Bulgars, they were great people, great warriors. They were also taller than Europeans wen they came, their average height was 175m and were physically very strong. While the rest of Europeans measured an average height of 160m

Little is left of our Bulgar ancestors in the Bulgarian population today though.

How much truth is in this?

That's about it - bulgars and slavs joined forces to protect themselves from avars (that's how it started)...however, there wasn't any mixing between them for the first 200 years � each stuck to their own.But, when both slavs and bulgars accepted christianity, process of assimilation of bulgars began � they accepted slavic language as their own-so all that was left of them was the name...

And that old man is right � slavs were mostly peaceful farmers...And if u�re interested in the description of south slavs- try to find De bello gotico by Procopius of Cesarea � the part is Gotica 38.8. III (i think so at least).

Edited by Socrates

Originally posted by Afghanan Who are Slavs originated from?  Scytho-Sarmatians?  Avars?  Or did they just arrive as their own identity?

The last remark is closest to the truth.And Avars?They weren't even IE's-and looked nothing like the description of slavs from the early meadievals-very tall and well-built,ruddy in the face and fair-haired. It's not even an option.Avars imposed their rule on a part of eastern and southern slavs in the early medieavals (7th-9th century)-they were remembered as bloodthirsty savages-that's about all there's to say about them.And slavs are more ancient then that - Tacitus(1st century AD) mentions them as Venedi living in the east Germania.He says that they're acting as ''bandits'' - he says it's because they took over sarmatian mentality  .Interestingly-he also mentions people called Peucini (Balts?) who are also mixing heavily with sarmatians by intermarriages.He notes that their appearance has ''roughen'' greatly because of that.So i guess the sarmatians weren't excatly "nordics''-as they are depicted by nordicists .

Basically, slavs seemed to be a part of a larger IE group sometimes called germano-balto-slavic (based on lingustic and archeological? grounds).But-what's more certain is that balts and slavs seem to be closely connected (in the IE tree).It appears that they separated somewhere around 1500 BC.Trzinec-Komarow archaeological culture between the Oder and the Dnepr rivers is a candidate of proto-slavic homeland(according to Gornung and Rybakov). All the hydronyms and toponyms of that area seem to witness that it was so.

What's more interesting for you is certainly that  it appears slavs had close contacts with scyths and sarmats (since the 7th cen. BC at least).This is one of the explanations of similarity of slavic and iranian languages.Slavs were probably the ''scythians'' mentioned by herodotus that are not engaged in warfare, but are farmers that provide for scyths proper - royal scyths..Their contacts with sarmats were even closer.German maps from the early/middle medievals still depicted ''sarmatians'' in parts of todays poland - which means they had significant influence on slavs.They certainly had a significant lingustic and genetic influence at least on ucranians and south-eastern russians.However, most historians agree that they influenced all slavic languages-most common examples are words bog (god) and ray (paradise) undoubtedly of iranic origin.

 

A number of those words are not of ''exclusive'' bulgarian origin-they're pretty much in common to all south slavs-which couldn't be associated to bulgars.Like ZHIVOT-I mean-it's pronounced excatly the same in serbo-croatian...and it's not very likely that we picked it up from the bulgars- i mean, it's pretty sure we had the word personifying life before bulgars-don't you think?- i mean-it's one of the most frequently used words in every language (and one of the basic ones).Or SHUMA- which means forest in serbo-croatian.You should know that old slavs were the people of forests and rivers-they had countless no. of names for them-just like persians had for mountains...SHUGAV-again excatly the same in serbo-croatian (from SHUGA-mangy)-btw english synonymus is shebby-sounds  similar-now that couldn't be associated with old bulgars-can it?Even SHUNDA is doubtful - we serbs say SHUNDAV-the one who has a speech flaw.

THen TIGAN- we serbs say TIGANJ-also means frying pan.SVILA is in common to all south slavs;SABL(j)A also.PYRKHA - in sebian it also means to flit.SIROMA(K)H-in common to all south slavs.PRLJA- in common to all south slavs-means to make something dirty(serbo-croatian).PAPLI can be compared to serbo-croatian PIPATI- to touch (delicately) or PIPAVO - something delicate. PUG is comparable to PUKNUTI - also means to crack.PSUVAM-in common to...PSOVATI in s-c.PITA-also in common...(i had one few days ago ).PESHKIR-excatly the same in serbian-could a turkish loanword...PECHURKA- mushroom in serbo-croatian-in common to blah, blah...PELERINA-??? same in serbian...btw, very spread out -so it's  not a very good specimen.PAS (after in pashto)- in serbian it's POSHTO.MRCINA - it's used (in serbia) as an expression for a corpse-mostly animal ones-it's pretty clear it's derived from MRTAV - dead.MERA means measurment in serbian-it can be easily connected with land and pastures ( in the sense of measuring).MARTAK sounds similar to serbian ORTAK - a partner (in business usually).LESH means corpse (a human one) in sebian.KUTRAJ (pashto) is comparable to serbian KUCHE (small dog).KUKER ( a cry in pashto) is similar to serbian KUKATI-to cry, to moan.KACURA (a hood in pashto ) is comparable to serbian KACKET (hood).KOTURA (�a type of big wooden vessel� in pashto)-almost the same as KOSHARA or KOTARICA- wooden baskets in serbian.KOKICHE ( a small flower in pashto) - we use the word KOKICE for popcorn- they look like small flowers when they're done-i'd say there's a connection.ZER in bulg. is almost the same as ZAR in serbian-also used when u want to stress something out.VEZHDA (an eyebrow) in bulg. is similar to serbian VEDJA.VADJA (bulg), WADA (pashto)0comp. to serbian VADITI-to pull out.BAKHTJA SE is almost the same as serbian BAKTATI SE (to labour...)-once again-SOUTH SLAVIC...

So-the case is clear- a no. of words are in common to all south slavs, some are similar due to common IE roots, a no. could be loanwords., and a few could really be connected to pashto-which doesn't proove much-since all steppe warriors were more or less influenced by iranics (linguistically and genetically).There's a no. of chuvash words comparable to english ones- I wonder... .

Anyway Afghanan,-since u're fascinated with long-distance connections, here's one even further then the bulgar-pashto one:

Sanskrit	Serbian	Latvian	Meaning
abhi	oba(e)	abi	both
asmi	(je)sam	esmu	am
asti	jesti	esti	to eat
bhedati	beda(misery)	bedati	worry
bhuti	biti	buti	be, exist
cathurth	cetvrta(i,o)	ceturta	fourth
dala	deo,del	dala	part,division
dina	dan	diena	day
dhuma	dim	duma	smoke
jiv	zhiv	dziv	alive
j*vati	zhiveti	dzivuoti	live
katha	kako to	ka ta	how that
kada	kad(kada)	kad	when
kliba	klipa*	kliba	unable,lame
madhu	med	medu	honey
pretvira	pretvara**	pret vara	opponents,contra power
rasa	rosa	rasa	dew
sad	seda	sed	sits
sth	stav	stav	stand
slaviti	slaviti***	slaveti	glorify
saditi	saditi	staditi	plant
ti	jedi	edi	eat
trayas	tri(troyka)	tris	three
trasati	tresti	triceti	tremble
ud*n	voda	uden	water
udhar	vidra	uden	otter

*klipa is used in all three genders-it is used as a noun ( mostly in comical conotation)

**pretvarati is a verb-means to turn into (like turn into stone),and it also means to pretend-however it�s obviously somehow connected to pretvira and pret vara.

***Slaviti-derived from slava (glory)-or is it vice verse?However, it could be connected to the ethymology of Slaven,Sloven-Slav.

 

If i was to be politically correct, i should put serbo-croatian instead of serbian...but i'm not....

 

Edited by Socrates