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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "family values"
    Posted: 11-Nov-2004 at 13:36

I find it intresting the states that talk about family values have the highest divorce, murder, and welfare rates int eh country, dont you?  From the toughenough:

In Walking the walk on family values, William V. D'Antonio points out that

    President Bush and Vice President Cheney make reference to "Massachusetts liberals" as if they were referring to people with some kind of disease. I decided it was time to do some research on these people, and here is what I found.

    The state with the lowest divorce rate in the nation is Massachusetts. At latest count it had a divorce rate of 2.4 per 1,000 population, while the rate for Texas was 4.1.

Not to be obnoxiously Massachusetts-centric here,

    The Associated Press, using data supplied by the US Census Bureau, found that the highest divorce rates are to be found in the Bible Belt. The AP report stated that "the divorce rates in these conservative states are roughly 50 percent above the national average of 4.2 per thousand people." The 10 Southern states with some of the highest divorce rates were Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, and Texas. By comparison nine states in the Northeast were among those with the lowest divorce rates: Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Vermont.

In fact,

    For all the Bible Belt talk about family values, it is the people from Kerry's home state, along with their neighbors in the Northeast corridor, who live these values. Indeed, it is the "blue" states, led led by Massachusetts and Connecticut, that have been willing to invest more money over time to foster the reality of what it means to leave no children behind. And they have been among the nation's leaders in promoting a living wage as their goal in public employment. The money they have invested in their future is known more popularly as taxes; these so-called liberal people see that money is their investment to help insure a compassionate, humane society.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2004 at 13:44
Intresting, just on another forum, a link was posted that had the divorce rate, on a state for state basis.
http://www.divorcereform.org/94staterates.html


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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2004 at 20:23
Thanks for the interesting post!
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2004 at 22:29

That's why Bush is so pro-familial values though, because the United States has fallen so far from traditional family values. I don't think he's helping those values much by support businesses that exploit families. Then again he seems genuinly concerned about how are traditions are falling apart.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 00:30

and what traditions are those? The only thing about Bush he seems to care about is discrimintion based on sexual orientation.  I think if Massachusettes is the only state that allows gay marriage and also has the lowest divorce rate that kinda disproves many conservativ arguments.  I guess red state family values are more like wife beating and clear chauvanism and the wish to maintain that.

And why are these issue regarded as important to people?  Marriage is not needed in modern societym, it serves no real purpose other than draining away money for boring cerimonies that mean nothing.  If you truly love someone, you dont need an marriage to prove it, hell you shouldnt need any such thing to prove it.  Marriage is just another issue for "moralists" to harp on as they try to prevent eh adaptation of society. 

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 00:33
Also, rememner the more secualr nations that are developed have less marriage than we do, but better sex ed, less unwanted pregnacies, and less domestic abuse.  If anything our society clinging to mariage and goofy "traditional" values is simply the fear you get from a cultural weakness and fear of change.  Our values based programs like those horrible abstinence educations only increase the problems while failing to react to societal change.
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 12:01

Personally Tobodai, I am against government sponsored marriage, marriage is a religious lifelong bond between two people. The government requiring a liscence for it is a violation of the church-state divide. The only thing the government can issue are contracts of civil union, which would only merge stuff and have certain tax rights and medical rights. So therefore one could have gay civil union, straight civil union, and any marriage they want so long as it's in their church.

Our values based programs like those horrible abstinence educations only increase the problems while failing to react to societal change.

What's wrong with abstinence, it's worked fine for me all of this time. The problem is with society. We're raised in a society where we don't have to give a damn about the consequences of our actions because someone else will fix it. I'm sick of that, people need to fess up to what they've done and work to make something better. Americans as a people are lazy, uncaring and overobsessed with sex (both in its prevention and propagation). This is utter crap and I think it would be much better if we had drastic reforms.

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  Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 18:06

Good post T -

"The Sky is Falling"

another great example of how the facts contradict the rhetoric.  But - as we have seen - if people are listen to and are frightened by the rhetoric - they will respond not with intelligence - but out of that fear.

J -

Americans as a people are lazy, uncaring and overobsessed with sex

Have you been looking in my window?

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  Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 18:31
Originally posted by JanusRook

Personally Tobodai, I am against government sponsored marriage, marriage is a religious lifelong bond between two people. The government requiring a liscence for it is a violation of the church-state divide. The only thing the government can issue are contracts of civil union, which would only merge stuff and have certain tax rights and medical rights. So therefore one could have gay civil union, straight civil union, and any marriage they want so long as it's in their church.

Under your idea I am not married, I have only a civil union. I dissagree that marriage is a religious thing (and would like it if you could elberate on this more). When (17 years ago on monday)I made the vows to "love hounor and charish till death due us part" they where made in all seriousness. And it has more to due with how you precive and live those vows than to due with who officiated at the ceremony. For me to be married in a church with a church leader as official would have been nothing but hippicritical since I don't believe in any of it. Rather the important part was that we announced to the world our intentions and made promises to each other in front of witnessess and made it difficult to get out of those promises (not that I have ever wished to) Thats one of the problems with comman law (and marriages in general) arrangements it is just way to easy to walk away if times get tough.  Being in a church would not have made those promises any less binding or meaningful.

 

Marriage is not needed in modern society

Why do you think that?



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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 01:17
Originally posted by JanusRook

Personally Tobodai, I am against government sponsored marriage, marriage is a religious lifelong bond between two people. The government requiring a liscence for it is a violation of the church-state divide. The only thing the government can issue are contracts of civil union, which would only merge stuff and have certain tax rights and medical rights. So therefore one could have gay civil union, straight civil union, and any marriage they want so long as it's in their church.

Our values based programs like those horrible abstinence educations only increase the problems while failing to react to societal change.

What's wrong with abstinence, it's worked fine for me all of this time. The problem is with society. We're raised in a society where we don't have to give a damn about the consequences of our actions because someone else will fix it. I'm sick of that, people need to fess up to what they've done and work to make something better. Americans as a people are lazy, uncaring and overobsessed with sex (both in its prevention and propagation). This is utter crap and I think it would be much better if we had drastic reforms.

 

ok good points, and I agree, though I dont think sex is the problem its ignorance.  Contries in Europe have just as much or even mor sexually active populations that we do and less diseases and pregnancies, we have more in ll likely hood because e just say dont do it.  Well that doesnt work.  Americans are on the whole stupid and young people are practically programed to be ultra horny, saying abstinence is the answer is a denial of rality. 

I dont care if thats what people personally do, hell i did for a while myself, but when government policy is more focuses on telling you how to behave and less on trying to educate....it wont work.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 01:28
Originally posted by vagabond

Good post T -

"The Sky is Falling"

another great example of how the facts contradict the rhetoric.  But - as we have seen - if people are listen to and are frightened by the rhetoric - they will respond not with intelligence - but out of that fear.

J -

Americans as a people are lazy, uncaring and overobsessed with sex

Have you been looking in my window?

 

The intresting thing is I think it works like this:  marriage is fine in New Egland so they dont see it as an issue and a waste of tim, much as I cant stand Ne Englanders as people I almost always agree with them and admire their sucessful society, and in this case they are right.

WHy the bible belt and reactionaries get steamed is because they do not realize this, they think New englanders are corrupt liberals when it is in fact the southerners and nevadans who have the more violnt less stabel relationships.  Its like a hyporisy defence.

Ive also seen statistics showing that if you cut the south out of the US our crime rates, rape rates, and welfare rates would be much closer to that of say Britain, adn that a disproportionate amount of those things are geographically isolated.

Another irony, as you-know-who hates welfare very much, yet they are the primary benificiaries.  Not that I blame people for using this defense, deep dpwn we are all hypocrates.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 22:23
I don't see why you believe so many people voted for Bush based on values when that is the conclusion of the same exit polls that predicted Kerry would win.
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  Quote maersk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 16:51
yea. the south is a bit...........hick
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  Quote maersk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 16:52
yea, thats a blanket statement, but i feel i have the authority to make such a statement cause i lived in southern georgia for a year and it was hell on earth.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 23:02

Originally posted by Genghis

I don't see why you believe so many people voted for Bush based on values when that is the conclusion of the same exit polls that predicted Kerry would win.

 

doesnt have to so with the polls as much as just common sense and knowing how people vote.  The ironic thing is that because of the values debate pretty much everyone in America votes for the party detreimental to their economic well being.  The northeast and the west coast hav emore people who will benifit from tax cuts and dprosper from free trade, wheras the econimically ravaged places that may benefit from protectionaism and strong uniosn for blue color workers vote republican..its especially strange when you think of what the midwest and west used to be....incredibly radical.

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  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 07:13

Originally posted by maersk

yea. the south is a bit...........hick

Well, I've lived in Texas for far more than a year..........and I know the south to be as urbane and progressive as any other part of the US.  I feel quite safe in making that blanket statement since I've lived here for 20+ years......

You get into the more rural areas of the north and you'll see as many 'hicks' as you will anywhere else.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 14:41

and yet they have better family values and yet dont force its politics on everyone else...

 

Doesnt Texas also hav ethe worst pollution, education, and justice system int eh country?

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  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 16:36
Originally posted by Tobodai

Doesnt Texas also hav ethe worst pollution, education, and justice system int eh country?

No dear, that's Arkansas......you know, home of Bill and Hilary Clinton.

Actually there are other states who are far worse..........

and you may want to check out  the pollution problems in the Northeast - home of acid rain.

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  Quote Bryan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 21:34

Bah, seems I can't stay away for a bit... hmm... anyways...

yea, thats a blanket statement, but i feel i have the authority to make such a statement cause i lived in southern georgia for a year and it was hell on earth.
Which part of southern Georgia did you live in for that year? Did you stay in one town, city, or county? Or did you travel around? You can't make a blanket statement like that about a certain region (i.e. the South) unless you've been all around that region (in other words, been in more than just Georgia). Unless you've done so, that comment is not a blanket statement, but a stereotype.

Now, with that said, I see Tobodai is still on the attack as ever.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 22:31

As Always, but always ion jest you should know.

I have been to every state west of the Mississippi, I have seen so mcuh fo this country and I must say that cornellia ia right about hicks being everwhewhere.  Whereas there is rusted junk in the woods  whether your in Maine or Arizona and its dumb to stereotype based on how people live.....my point to rear the topic back to tis originas is jsut the hypocrisy of how everyone votes.

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