Chechnya is necessarry and justified

Knight

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Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 02:36

Also everyone talks about our Aggression, but what about Chechen agression?
Also Maskhadov was powerless, he couldn't even stop the invasion of Dagustan.

Also we neve had a truce, this debate was just worn otu after both sides have felt that the otehr is a complete idiot who cannot get even the simplest conecpt into their head.

How many times a day do you get stopped by Chechen military patrolls? How many of your relatives have died in the conflict? When is the last time your school was bombed off the face of the earth? There is a difference. Maskhadov wanted peace, he wanted to negotiate, but he was murdered.

You keep saying you don't want Chechenya, so genocide is the solution?

Kalevipoeg View Drop Down

Chieftain

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Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 15:12

Indeed, Putin restarted the war in 1999., just one day after the bombing of some civilian house at an oblast i can't really remember anymore. Well anyway, the governement said it was the work of Chechen terrorists while the press and the inhabitants there witnessed some FSB action going on in the house the night before. Some sacks with white powder were carried by these operatives into the basement of the house and by the looks of that powder, it certainly wasn't flower. So it is commonly acknowledged that Putin or some high ranking government official had given the order to go on with the act and blame Chechens yet again to start another war to subdue any resistance.

There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...

dark_one

Baron

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Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 21:39

How many times a day do you get stopped by Chechen military patrolls?

None seeing as I live in America. And I wouldn't in my hometown of Moscow which I visist for 2 or 3 months a year if time permits. But those things are to be expected in an occupied terriotory. How many Iraqis get stopped by American military patrols?

How many of your relatives have died in the conflict?

Thankfully none as of now, everyone is either way above or a little below military age.

When is the last time your school was bombed off the face of the earth?

If by mine, you mean any of the schools I went to then never. Probably because Chechnya doesn't have an airforce, and Russia is stronger. North Osetia isn't however. Nobody talks about them. Nobody talks about how they despise Chechnya, nobody talsk of how horrible the Osetian's lives are made by Chechnya since htey don't support their insane cause. Nobody talks about how many osetians died at the hands of Chechens.

Maskhadov wanted peace, he wanted to negotiate, but he was murdered.

The man had little control over affairs, I don't see how he could have done anything.

You keep saying you don't want Chechenya, so genocide is the solution?

Either that or a peace treaty with the Chechens that leaves them to be art of Russia. With some autonomy of course. Otherwise they will drive themselves to extinction in the fight against us.

Conspiracy theory. I can give out tens of sites that say everything from the aliens of Roswell to how the USA government staged 9/11. You don't even have an implausible source (or if you do you do not post it)/

wilpuri

Knight

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Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 12:39

Originally posted by dark_one

How many times a day do you get stopped by Chechen military patrolls?

Who was talking about Iraq? By the way, nice going comparing Chechenya to another illegitimate war

Anyway, I was trying to help you realize why the Chechens might be just a teeny weeny angry at Russians and their government.

How many of your relatives have died in the conflict?

Thankfully none as of now, everyone is either way above or a little below military age.

In Chechenya, children, women, men, people regardless of age are being killed, but they are the terrorists?

Maskhadov wanted peace, he wanted to negotiate, but he was murdered.

The man had little control over affairs, I don't see how he could have done anything.

So that's why Putin wants to hand out medals to the men who murdered him?

You keep saying you don't want Chechenya, so genocide is the solution?

Either that or a peace treaty with the Chechens that leaves them to be art of Russia. With some autonomy of course. Otherwise they will drive themselves to extinction in the fight against us.

I think you just brought us back to the stone age.

dark_one

Baron

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Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 13:28

Who was talking about Iraq? By the way, nice going comparing Chechenya to another illegitimate war

Anyway, I was trying to help you realize why the Chechens might be just a teeny weeny angry at Russians and their government.

They attack us and are angry at us for occupying them?

In Chechenya, children, women, men, people regardless of age are being killed, but they are the terrorists?

Some of them undoubtedly are.

So that's why Putin wants to hand out medals to the men who murdered him?

It looks good in newspapers. Heroic man destroy evil terrorist leader.

I think you just brought us back to the stone age.

No, I used logic. There are less Chechens then there are of us and hte fight is on theri territorry, so if both sides continue to fight chances are they will run out of people first.

Now Osetia plzkthxbye

Edited by dark_one

Tlaloc

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Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 18:34

All this hate..

If you want to get down to the fundementals of this conflict, it's simple: Russians have a right to keep the place ultimately subservient to their political structure.

Chechens have the right to try and separate.

Russia, ergo, has the right to try and stop them.

Everyone else's opinions are just as biased, because both sides have done wrong just as much as they've done right.

Personally, I'm with the Ruskies on this one. I have this thing for rebellious Muslims...

Kalevipoeg View Drop Down

Chieftain

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Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 09:40

Then let's all hate rebellious Russians during WW2 when Germany occupied some of them, and all other freedom fighters around the world. I just can't despise the Chechen cause when their villages and cities are bombed for no tactical reason and women raped and elders murdered by a "professional" army which has rules and conduct to behave by. And i don't think i can find all around proof on the massacres of Chechen villages, the Russian press isn't probably free to move around there.

There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...

wilpuri

Knight

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Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 10:36

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

the Russian press isn't probably free to move around there.

The Russian press isn't free, period.

dark_one

Baron

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Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 17:02

Read mine and Tlaloc's posts, I answer your points you answer mine.
To tell you the truth everyone is tired of the war, the army is in ad condition due to budget cuts, the country ahs huge economic problems so what happens to a bunch of muslims somewhere over in the deep south reallly doesn't concern anyone.
And yes we get stories of massacres. But it became routine, these days the coverage we get is the statement that a village was bombed/burned down adn the number of dead and injured, then they move on to other news.

The Russian press isn't free, period.

Bring me a Russian newspaper (or rea done online) and tell me which important stories in it that the west has it doesn't have or has a falsified version off.
Now as I said, Osetia. The only reason yo don't answer is because you know that the Chechens are doing things in Osetia that are worse than what we do in Chechnya and that would falsify your claims about how angelic and innocent the Chechens are.

wilpuri

Knight

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Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 06:59

Calm down. I didn't say that the Russian press lies or falsifies, I said it isn't free. How many independent major news agencies does Russia have?

As for Osetia falsifying my claims of Chechen innocence, I never claimed such things. But answer this for me, did the troubles in Osetia begin before or after the first Chechen war? Because if they began afterwards, that would completely support my claim of Russian aggression being the main cause for the radicalization of the Chechen resistance from a nationalist one to a islamist one.

dark_one

Baron

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Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 13:23

How many independent major news agencies does Russia have?

I don't know, but almost every newspaper they sell at newsstands in Moscow is independent. The only exception I could find being the Komsomolyskaya Pravda translated as "The truth fromt he Komsomol (young communists)" which is trusted by the old conservatives who grew up from the 40s to the 70s.

You blaming Russia for everything is hilarious. The last news stroy about the Osetians I read in the Itogi (another independent publication as far as I know, and if it isn't is still makes fun of the government a lot) talks about how many of the Osetians were killed in 1994 when the Chechens attacked North Osetia for it's refusal to join South Osetia in sceding as a part of Chechnya, but rather staying in Russia.

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Chieftain

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Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 14:24

Well, i don't think Russia is tired of the war. The civilian populous of course most certainly is on both sides, but i don't think Putin and his cronies would let a pipeline go just like that. What was it, somehwere in billions of dollars of oil contracts coming through Chechnya. That just pushes Putin back to Mscow i guess, correct me if i am wrong.

And saying that Russia has little to do with Chechen radicalism, bah, phew, jibberish. Killing a nation for over a century doesn't cause radicalism at all i guess, my barbarian little friend?

There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...

dark_one

Baron

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Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 14:33

Killing a nation for over a century doesn't cause radicalism at all i guess, my barbarian little friend?

Times when people were killed in large numbers during the 20th century:
1. Russo-Japanese war. No idea how many Chechens served and were killed.
2. WWI. Again no idea how many of those who served were Chechens.
3. Civil War. I'm guessing that some were indeed killed fighting for Chechen independence.
4. Starvation and Stalin's repressions. Chechens weren't a group focused on, much more Russians died than Chechens.
5. WWII. They deffected to the Nazis. I'm guessing this pissed Stalin off, but they deserved whatever they got for supporting Nazis.
6. War in Afghanistan. No idea on number of Chechens killed, but definetely no more than Russians.
7. The two wars in Chechnya, this is where you are right.
So with the exception of as punishment for supporting Nazis and willingly fighting in the Civil War I don't see when Chechens were killed in large numbers. Both times they chose to support the loosing side, and both times were in war.
They have every right to rebel, and we have every right to crush rebellions on our soil, jsut as it is anyweher ein the world.

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Chieftain

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Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 14:53

Anyone with humanistic views in this discussion other than me? I kinda feel alone.

There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...

dark_one

Baron

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Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 14:58

Wilpuri is here, isn't he? I have no one to support the logical side of the discussion, but there are two humanists.

wilpuri

Knight

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Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 15:11

Well I don't know why I even bother to argue this issue. Here we have someone who quite openly states that genocide is an acceptable solution, but thinks that fighting alongside Nazi Germany against a common enemy is unacceptable?

dark_one

Baron

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Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 15:22

When have I said that geonicide is an acceptable solution? If I have then show me where and I will gladly correct it. I have sid that if Chechnya continues to fight us they will drive themselves to extinction, though.

wilpuri