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Possibility of war with China.
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pikeshot1600 
Tsar 
Joined: 22-Jan-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4221 |
 Topic: Possibility of war with China.Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 06:50 |
The development of a blue water navy might depend on how things develop over the next several decades. However, a large navy is horrendously expensive to create and maintain, and cannot be conjured up in a few years. Ask the Royal Navy and U.S. navy about not only proficiency, but operational experience, and about naval architecture and the innovation that comes from long experience. That is to say nothing of integrating technology that changes minute to minute these days. An efficient coast defense navy and a blue water navy are very, very different things. Also, the further away from your home base you are, the more you need elaborate dockyard, repair and replenishment facilities. It is not very sexy, but these inconvenient logistical realities are the basis for effective operations and a realistic strategic doctrine. Last, and I'll shut up And then you must have air power to support the infantry. Again, experience is crucial.
Edited by pikeshot1600 |
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SearchAndDestroy
Caliph 
Joined: 15-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2728 |
Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 08:41 |
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I don't think they have to worry about that, they keep stealing our technology anyways. I think recently just a couple months ago, they caught three Chinese spies trying to steal plans for a new propulsion system, and then I think a month or two later they caught another three piece spy team. |
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Qin Dynasty
Shogun 
Joined: 08-Jan-2006 Location: China Online Status: Offline Posts: 211 |
Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 09:56 |
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It is true that to build a real blue navy is a weighty and painstaking task . That is why the USA is a superpower whereas China is not. But to destory or plaster it is totally another thing. [/QUOTE] I don't think they have to worry about that, they keep stealing our technology anyways. i think recently just a couple months ago, they caught three Chinese spies trying to steal plans for a new propulsion system, and then I think a month or two later they caught another three piece spy team. [/QUOTE] What almighty the China intelligence is! it could keep stealing US technology and even made those TIs work for it.( Lee Wen He , a taiwan independence supportor, if i m not wrong) BTW, do u happen to know the CIA financed espionages are captured every year in China? and 24 detectaphones were digged out in the Chinese Air Force One after it was assembled in the USA ?
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Richard XIII
Colonel 
Joined: 06-Jun-2005 Location: Romania Online Status: Offline Posts: 651 |
Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 11:50 |
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C'est la vie! What the hell CIA financed? And, really speaking China is not a superpower in science and technologies, is a supreme power to copy everything!
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details." Albert Einstein |
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pikeshot1600
Tsar
Joined: 22-Jan-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4221 |
Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 15:45 |
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In a post above, I mentioned the huge costs of navies and widespread naval operations. The PRC would need to take these things into account. In the 1970s, part of the USSR's strategic thrust was to attain the capability to interdict the West's oil supplies if they needed to. Thus, the move into Afghanistan and the naval presence around the Red Sea, etc. That may have been sound as a strategic goal, but they never did have the means to pull it off. The enormous amounts of national resources poured into the navy did not pay dividends, and may have been one of the contributing factors in the Soviet collapse. By most accounts, Soviet ship design was deficient in many respects, some ship classes being unseaworthy and almost impossible to maintain away from home ports. Operational radius was inadequate in many cases, and there were safety problems, especially with the submarines. The USSR tried to become a major naval power in little more than a decade, 1960s to 1980. Prior to that the navy had been primarily a coast defence fleet based on the submarine. The substantial lack of blue water navy experience as well as the enormous costs involved were serious problems that were never overcome. Once the U.S. began to modernize its armed forces in the 1980s, including at that time, a 600 ship navy, more advanced aircraft and all the new electronic ordnance, and 250,000 marines with all their amphibious assault ships and aircraft, the Soviets could not keep up. It takes not only money and time, it takes experience, and that is far more than a decade or so, or maybe even 50 years.
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Qin Dynasty
Shogun
Joined: 08-Jan-2006 Location: China Online Status: Offline Posts: 211 |
Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 21:15 |
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What the hell does China copy? From Romania? Are you implying Ch ina's achievements all depend on stealing and piracy? If u talk about the commercial competition between multinational ventures, then which country's does not keep stealing? really insulting. To pikeshot: I agree with your view. But the point is China has no intention to build up a navy as same level as the US owned, it accomulates a capability of anti-US fleet step by step. This is much easier to achieve and not time and money consuming. Edited by Qin Dynasty |
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Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 4613 |
Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 22:07 |
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The chinese will use the soviet tactics of using a salvo of missiles
rather than aircraft to project power on the sea. The Russian could
never compete with the USA in terms of aircraft carriers and naval
airpower, but instead put alot of its effort into large, very fast and
long ranged antiship missiles. The basic idea is luanch a salvo at a
safe distance, western defenses would be stretched with the number and
speed of the missiles, while your own fleet avoid any close contact.
A Sovremenny class destroyer armed with 8 of these missiles was design to lauched a salvo of sunburns in the hope 1 or two would break through a stretched defense and take out a aircraft carrier/crussier. China only has 4 of these, i dont think they wanted to build up on russian ships, but make there own. There is talk of guided Ballistic missiles being modifyed into moving target -anti ship missiles reported by janes. This would show the chinese are adopting a different way of taking on USA naval power without directly competing on ship to ship. To see where the PLAN are at in ship building, check out the Type 052 B and C Aircraft carrier? The Varyag could be refurbished while docked in Dailian.  |
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krios
Janissary 
Joined: 19-Jan-2006 Location: Slovenia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 22:59 |
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Come on China has old russian navy. What russia put out of bussines they reapir a little and sell to china. China has one new ship ( russian delivery ) and one russians are doing for them at the moment. You can not be superpower without super navy like usa and russia. Those two are only true superpowers in the world today. China needs at least 40 years to become super. As for china navy is very important if they want taiwan someday. They can not go there by foot, cos they will be destroyed in one second. There is just not so much space to manuver. Just look at the map
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Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 4613 |
Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 04:47 |
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krios wrote:
"China has one new ship ( russian delivery ) and one russians are doing for them at the moment." it has definatley has two powerful destroyers, one more from 2005 and another this year. " Come on China has old russian navy." They have two brand new and chinese designed Type 052B Luyang I, and two Type 052C Luyang II. The Luyang I alone, have stealth features comparable to the european designs and a capabuility close to the kid class detroyer that tawian is getting of the US. one of the Luyang I  one of the Luyang II, notice the advance radar on the ship itself and compare with the USA guided missile destroyers/cruisers.  They produced those four ships very quickly, so i still think your 50 years is wishful thinking. Edited by Leonidas |
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krios
Janissary
Joined: 19-Jan-2006 Location: Slovenia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 06:14 |
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4 ships come on !! .... where are the other 500 ? I know you all wish that china is superpower. At the moment not... but in many years ahead ... maybe but just maybe.
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Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 4613 |
Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 06:38 |
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its the very important capability of designing and building ships comparable to the west, which im talking about.
its 3+1 russian ships and 4 very respectable local ships. A even more powerful new class based on the ones pictured is expected to be built in the next few years. I havent got into the missiles which i think is the key technology in this whole scenario not ships.Some types/versions that already can out range the US harpoon. China in the short term wants the capaibility to take tawain before the usa can intervene properly, it should be able to do this sooner than you think. Being able to take on the USA in the pacific is still a while away, but i think a war over tawian is the senerio not guam. BTW the ballistic missiles that they are devloping into antiship weapons have a range of 600km for the short range version. The chinese will not use just convential tactics/warfare against the USA, they to smart for that. Edited by Leonidas |
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sinosword
Consul 
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 Location: China Online Status: Offline Posts: 302 |
Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 10:23 |
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if need, we can produce 50 such ships per year. apparently china doesn't want to do so. china only built 2 ships each type currently, coz no need to waste money on weapons which will be craps 20 years later. it's not war time now, and modern military tech is being developed too fast. actually chinese navy only spend little money on ships' production, but put most of money on techs research and sailmen's training. the current petty warships production has two points, improving war industry and offering training ships.
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sinosword
Consul
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 Location: China Online Status: Offline Posts: 302 |
Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 10:34 |
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the most important a blue navy should have is not eqipments but experiences. unfortunately chinese navy is zero on this. there should be a long way to go, includes to compile new systemic sea war tactics theory, training textbooks and datas of experiences.
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sinosword
Consul
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 Location: China Online Status: Offline Posts: 302 |
Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 11:10 |
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052B's air-defence is till weaker than kidd class, but 052C is much strongger for sure. kidd's SPS40B radar is in S band, which doesn't have enough enough accuracy to guide its SM-2 block2 missile, coz this missile is a kind of semi-active radar tracked missile. SM-2 uses INs/orders guiding model(SPS-40B offers orders correct the lane error) in the middle of trajectory and be terminally guided by two SPG60 illuminators. in this case, kidd only can deal with two targets at the same time. and it can't shot over-horizon targets even there are AWACS and datalinks support, semi-active missile's disadvantage. 052C has a S band phase array radar and VLS launched HQ-9 missile. this missile has a active seeker, that means it doen't need terminal illuminating. and 052C can deal with numberless targets in theory(the actual number only limited by the number of HQ-9 on 052C. the similar missiles in USA is SM-6, but it's not going to be exported in the next 10 years. china will have the lead in this area in asia in this period. kidd class
052C
to buy some russian ships is because we want to research their weapons' techs. the russian weapons do kick ass in some area. but their ship building industy sucks to high heaven compares to ours. we don't need their ships' hull. russian best destroyer sovremenny class
Edited by sinosword |
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sinosword
Consul
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 Location: China Online Status: Offline Posts: 302 |
Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 02:00 |
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the only possible mass-produced surface combat ship is 054 frigate. it's cheap compare with expensive destoryer but with a decent and balanced capability in air defence, anti subs and surface ships warfare.
Edited by sinosword |
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Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 4613 |
Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 02:41 |
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Sinosword wrote:
"if need, we can produce 50 such ships per year. apparently china doesn't want to do so. china only built 2 ships each type currently, coz no need to waste money on weapons which will be craps 20 years later." That is roughly my take aswell; these 4 were probably needed somewhat but they arent rushing into a major building program. These are new designs, new tech ships, highly complex and i would imagine guine pigs. Once they can fix the bugs and get the experiance of operating them, then it would be smarter and cheaper to confidently build more. "to buy some russian ships is because we want to research their weapons' techs. the russian weapons do kick ass in some area. but their ship building industy sucks to high heaven compares to ours. we don't need their ships' hull." Agree with you here, the designs are messy, but its the sub systems and weapons that are worth the money. The second pair the PLAN bought have better radar (Band stand?)and a newer version antiship missile with a 200km range.The russian missiles are very deadly things, apart from a naval air arm (which only the USA has with a great strength) there is nothing more powerful. Thanks for the pics mine seem to have vanish  Edited by Leonidas |
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sinosword
Consul
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 Location: China Online Status: Offline Posts: 302 |
Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 14:09 |
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china's navy won't be able to confront the USN within 50 years. actualy just jap anese navy alone can take down us currently. look at their new built kongoII class destroyer, which is supposed to be the number one destroyer in the world before american DDX comes out.
Edited by sinosword |
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Guests
Guest 
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Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 03:48 |
most of these Chinese immigrants just wanna escape from the communist China, although the present communist party still could easly influence a few of overseas Chinese. I hope you know that China have been occupied by communist since 1949. Present China is not realy China, although a large number of Chinese dont realise that. You hate China or just communist China, but it seems that even USA government and companies are very happy to help communist to control mainland China. As far as I know: google, yahoo, Symantec and Cisco are helping communist to limit the internet freedom of speech of Chinese, and even helping communist to locate these Chinese who is no like communist that much. you said "i say our army should go to war with china." If here China you mean the Chinese communist government, I totally agree with you (I hope you just mean communist China). But war doesn't always mean war all the time. A ancient Chinese militarist said that the best policy in war is to attack the enemy's strategy, the second best best way is to disrupt his alliance through diplomatic means, the next best method is to attack enemy in the field, the worst policy is to attack walled city (Sun zi, Art of War, 515BC). Why dont you American attack the communist's strategy? If American helps Chinese and overseas Chinese know that communist just a invader that led Culture Revolution, massacre educated Chinese, and other bloody things. what will happen if USA cud force China to free its TV market, internet, newspaper? What will happen if Chinese knows that communist even burnt they family book? After Chinese reconvert their own culture and belief, they will know who is enemy and who is friend. Even the communist knows a disaster upon it will occur. About Taiwan: Only a few of Taiwanese believe independence could make Taiwan Better. Acturally, Republic Of China(Taiwan's official name) is a independent courty. To be honest, I dont think communist even dare to attack Taiwan. You think PLA may do that because you dont know how corrupted the PLA and the communist government are. If PLA goes to Taiwan, then PLA goes to hell. About Chinese immigrants: You may dont know that the population of majority of developed countries is decreasing. No one can stop it. There are three major population export culture: Chinese, Indiaian, and Muslim. Muslim population is more than the rest. I'm not going to say anything here. Because you know what happened in the UK, France, Austrilia and Denmark. About North Korea: Communist China doesn't have that much of influence on North Koera. Because some Chinese-Koeran army leader used to against Jin Richeng's (the first king of NK after WW2) autarchy. Acturally, North Korea just hopes that USA think China can influence North Koera. Sometimes, I think China should help North Korean against its ruler, just like USA should help Chinese against communist.
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Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 4613 |
Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 04:23 |
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It depends on the scope and extent on the conflict. If your looking at a direct and total challenge in open water your right. But in a limited scope in time and space that time line can shorten. The PRC is reported to look at assymetrical warfare and other unconventional tactics which cant be measured in ships alone. **edit** im replying to sinosword Edited by Leonidas |
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 04:27 |
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Are you Chinese? do you have the basic knowledge about the Chinese? China have been conquered by Zhou, Mongolia, Manchu and communist. never surrender? lol. Wen TianXiang did not surrender, but he suggested his brother to serve the Mongolia emperor. Yes, I did see a Chinese student stood infront of a PLA's tank. He did not surrender. .As a Chinese, I hope you could talk about our history seriously. Grandiloquence doesn't help here. Nuke icecape? crap. You communist scum wanna bring both Chinese and the whole world to hell. no way. only you will be burn in hell. |
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, if a naval strategic doctrine is embraced, what about a naval infantry force? I am not talking about a couple of regiments or a few commando units. What is required for effective use is a marine infantry force with all its supporting weapons systems and equipment that comprises a virtual second army. Sailing to the Indian Ocean won't mean a damn thing if the navy can't go ashore to fight.
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