Super Balkan Union

Originally posted by Patrinos The Roman poet Horace said: �Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit et artes intulit agresti Latio� (The defeated Greece conquered the victor and civilised the peasant Latins)

I think that Kukuzelis is Greek. It sounds like Greek and I doesn't look like Bulgar. The origin is 100% Greek.  AT least from his father side if we assume that his mother changed the surname as it was used to do at that time.

Edited by perikles - 07-Feb-2007 at 11:18

I can also add that after 1453 in essence the Hellenic people lost the greco roman tradition because most of the Byzantine elite ( the carrier of knowledge) immigrate to West (the Hellenic community in Venice was established this period) and because Ottomans where interested to promote culture related to Islam.The only tradition that kept the Hellenic people of the Ottoman empire were the Christian (through the church).After 1821 the     Diaspora Hellenes of Europe start through education transfer  again the greco roman tradition to the Hellenic people that live in the area of Ottoman empire. Actually western Europe became the carrier ,after the fallen of Byzantine empire , of the Greco Roman tradition and the development of the logic as mean to explain everything.

Nop. At least we (Greek and Romans)  never accuse people of being wizards and witches and of course we never burn people. And we respected the books, we didn't burn them. The honour in the battlefield and the good care of the prisoners was not a medieval advantage. And of course in ancient greece and later in rome was a respect to the superirity of the winner and the respect of the looser from the winner.

The day Balkans unite,the entire world will crumble.

Super Balkan Union.....

Hmmmmm.....In the words of Bart Simpson:''Never happen''

I will express a general opinion ,irrelevant to the above.

The Ancient Hellenic civilization,and Hellenic civilization overall, was and is being misunderstood by the majority of the world.It became the greatest civilization for quite some time for the West,while the East,if i can use such term,does not care about it.Really,very few know Ancient Hellas.They talk and talk and talk,and they only thing they manage is to show their stupidity and genuine lack of history knowledge.

Today there is another fashion:Ancient Hellens the "robbers" of Ancient Egyptian and Hinduistic philosophy,Black Athena and other awful and stupid things.

Nobody says that Ancient Hellens did not believe that they were the most Ancient civilization.Nobody mentions the fact that although Athenians hated Sparta and Persia ,there were also Athenians who followed the Spartan way of life or admired the Persian way of administration.Nobody mentions the fact that every city-State has it's own unique history.It's not only Athens and Sparta.

Some may believe that because the Ancient Hellens wrote down their history,their civilization is easy to understand.The fact is,that because of their written and monumental history,it is,in fact, more complex to understand them.

My point is ,that ,although i do not agree with the stupid theory that Ancient Hellens "teached" civilization to the rest of the world,Ancient Hellas and ,generally, the Hellenic civilization is one of the greatest manking ever knew.

Nationalism?No,a protest against stupidity.

Originally posted by Spartakus I will express a general opinion ,irrelevant to the above.

Originally posted by Spartakus Searching for identity in the Balkans,is like searching for aliens in planet Mars.

Originally posted by Anton Scraping of text does tell you something? To be serious, this is how it happens. Nowadays you can trace what was written in manuscripts using modern methods. Some of them were initially slavonic, then Greek then slavonic back. Or vice versa. People are bustards. They always think their opinion is more important than that of the others. And in this respect Greeks are not different. This example was aimed to illustrate Perikles opinion about "respect to books" not for something else.

I haven't ever heard about that.I've just heard about ancient Greeks' texts that were scraped of... I think you like this style of response.

Originally posted by Anton So, I should understand that godlike Hellens (and later their reincarnation as Byzantines) the civilizators of the world tought us barbarians basically everything   And then when another barbarians came the Balkans (Turks)third reincarnation of Godlike Hellens went the West Europe and cause Renaissance? Patrinos, this is not oversimplified opinion it is your national myth, how it looks from outside. And if you really think people believed it you are wrong. And yes, it is cute and one might smile unless somebody comes and says that you were riding hourses in Asia when we built whatever he built.

Despite your ironic tone I will coninue... But...do you think that Slavs were identical culturally before their coming to the Balkans and after? I suppose that you deny any Byzantine influence.To be more caustic I don't think that Slavs contributed...enough in what we call Byzantine culture.
For example the Slavs who established in Peloponnesus were some warriors and shepherds and anything is left from them,I mean culturally,only some toponyms.
Well the Greeks in Renaissance played an important role but not the major,who can deny it? Except you have arguments to proove that these Greeks who fled to Italy after 1453 were useless.Don't be afraid to demythologize our history...

Originally posted by Anton I cannot compare it to Jewish culture since I am not familiar with it. Especially ancient. But I can compare for example Thracian culture with that of Greeks. Yes, I see differences but I see also influences of each other whereas you (and not only you but it seems that almost every Greek) tend to describe this relations in terms of Hellenisation, assimilation, admiration by Greek culture and so on. Akritas would call it "nationalism" if it would be related to somebody else.   And when one tries to show you examples of opposite influence you with plenty arguments argue that it influence was initially Greek, or the person is Greek or something else of that sort.

So now Greek culture from just a Mediterranean culture variant became just a Balkan culture variant...lol
OK,we know the Thracian contribution in Greek culture(Dionysus(good choise by the Greekslol,Orpheus),but your undervaluation towards Greek culture either shows lack of knowledge or just prejudice against the permanently puffing up neighbors...

Originally posted by Anton How couldn't it be ironic when Perickles tells me that a guy who have Bulgarian mother and unknown father is Greek??? And which is more important when Perikles says he is not Bulgarian Just because "Kukuzelis" sounds Greek? Is that your obvious reason? Reason, my dear fellow Patrinos, is much more obvious. Kukuzelis is not Bulgarian just because he was genious and barbarians from the north cannot be genious people. And I do not find a reason to discuss farther any sources, because one author will be grekophob, another will make mistake in place of the river Itil, third will simply make a mistake to alllow to be published on a nationalistic site 3000 years after his death and so on. I enjoy that kind of demagogy but at least we need to share a bottle of Raki before the argumentation and one after.

Well,about Kukuzelis now.His name doesn't only sound Greek,but it is Greek,and not a christian Greek.He lived in a Greek colony,where Greeks lived until the late Byzantine times,he spoke Greek...my guess is that he is Greek...but thats not our subject.

Originally posted by Anton You missed something in this thread. I explained this but you didn't understand. Certainly it wasn't admiration of Pythagoras theorem.

Help me to find your right explanation,because I only saw something about Greek authorities who pushed them to be hellenised...Greek authorities
when and where?During the Ottomans slavery and within the Ottoman state???Its not convinsing.

Edited by Patrinos - 08-Feb-2007 at 15:45