Kashmir

Teldeindus, who on this forum has posted 3million people? i think i posted above 300,000 but i cant see 3 million anywhere.

and if we are going to start poking fun through newspapers should i post how India is apparantly supporting the boloochi militants?

What's your authority to hand over the ownership of China to us.China isn't even a democracy.Be careful about what you say.If the commies see your comments in this thread you might be.

First of all...The Pak sources quote 3 lakh and bangladeshis 3 million. Even considering a conservative figure of 1 million shows that large scale atrocities were perpetrated.

Just like you give sources I can come out with lots of links that state 3 million but lets not post links of bangla/paki/indian sites...let us interact.

But fact is that can u deny my friend that:

1. Atrocities were commited in Bangladesh by Pak army, I was especially saddened by the horrific rapes. The difference between you and me is that I acknowledge my countries mistake regarding atrocities against Kashmiris. While you deny the existense of killings/rapes of paki army against Bangladesh citizens. This is the difference. You believe in "your country right or wrong". The least we can do for the people suffering is atleast acknowledge that they have been wronged.

Your reasoning reminds me how neo-nazis everywhere tries to say that holocaust never occured and there was no 6 million jews killed but only a couple of lakhs. This is wrong. My friend you are not responsible for what your country does. But the minute you support any sort of atrocity against humans then I believe its a crime.

2. If Bangladesh was so well intergrated into Pak how come there was a strong nationalist movement? Please dont blame India for that!!

3. Kashmir now has elections!! Why doesnt Hurriyat take part in the elections and form a goverment. I will be happy when Pakistan become democratic. We have remained a democracy all throughout and what about your country where dictators take over.

4. And I fail to understand your logic. If Bangladesh seperates how does it justify the two nation theory. You said two nation theory was not meant to accomodate muslims?? Have you heard of population transfers?? It is an idiotic notion that has given a lot of power punjabis/sindis in Pak while it left rest of Indian muslims in the lurch.

Pak is not dependable: A clear example is how it joined the american forces in dislodging the Taliban. BTW if anyone is not aware, Taliban was installed by the Pak's ISI.

My final queries:

1. Do you agree that atrocities against any community by whomsoever is despicable?

2. Arent you sometimes ashamed by the parctises of your own country???

Originally posted by Anujkhamar Originally posted by TeldeIndus Originally posted by Anujkhamar and if we are going to start poking fun through newspapers should i post how India is apparantly supporting the boloochi militants?   It was sarcasm.. i know, i undersood, i meant the last part as a joke. newspapers, jeez ps, will be adding properly to the thread very soon (exams just finished!) Originally posted by Jhangora Agreed I give you total GNP of the planet {for 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000 000000000000000000000000000000001 second} (as you didn't specify the time period)and you get the ownership of USA after you handover China to us. what would the interest be on such a loan?

I'm sure the amount can be paid by the Indian Govt.Even if we have to take a loan to buy China,we would be able to pay the interest and the principal out of China's trade surplus.

Kashmir is a tragedy, I know for a fact that the people of Kashmir are very simple and kind hearted regardless of their religion.  For ages they had been living in communal harmony until political aspirations of a few gave way to rise in religious agitations. But, we can't at any cost forget about the many innocent kashmiri minorities (hindus and sikhs alike) who have been slaughtered and exiled from their homes by insurgents over the years. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/904883.stm

http://iref.homestead.com/Kashmir90.html

Telde, stop denying people being killed by your own hatred for the Indian army. It�s really  beginning to get sickening. I am in no way going to deny the data you just provided. However, you have in no way, shape or form given any proof as to claiming Kashmirir pandits have not been killed by militants.

Are you trying to say there�s no genocide? That people are just standing up and leaving for other Indian states for fun? They want to leave their ancestral home and move to a country that is �hiring militants to kill them�?

edit: ignore the smiley faces, they happen when you copy off of word

I never claimed that no pandits have been killed by militants. Some have, and from what I have read, the Kashmiri Muslims have distanced themselves from these groups. The resistance in Kashmir is not homogenous. There are many different groups, some of them are renegade militants on the payroll of the Indian Army. Those groups which are involved in the unusual action of killing their own people are distanced from the Kashmiri people by staging strikes in protest of whatever has happened. Many strikes have been called in Kashmir by Kashmiri Muslims to protest certain fresh Jihadi groups that have ended up targetting Kashmiris. The main resistance group, Hizb, attacks military targets only from what I've read - They are of course sons of the soil, so they would not attack their own people. 

PS. I dont hate the Indian Army, just what certain segments are doing in Kashmir.

The Mughal Empire is gone, though I would like to see your evidence for all this (Kashmiri Pandits being specifically targetted).

Yes.

BBC reports go s far as the Pandian Commission investigation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1001479.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/694459.stm 

Indian papers carry the results of the Pandian Commission investigation.

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=23275 

"In a detailed report submitted to the government last week after seven months, Justice S R Pandian has found three members of the Special Operations Group of the state police and four jawans of the Central Reserve Police Force involved in the heavy firing on a procession at Barakpora in southern Anantnag district to demand the exhumation of bodies of five persons allegedly killed as foreign militants at Pathribal.

The police chief of Kashmir range, Dr A K Bhan had then claimed that the five persons killed at Pathribal were foreign militants responsible for the massacre of Sikhs at Chattisinghpora."

http://in.rediff.com/news/2000/oct/31jk2.htm 

Well if you think it justifies the torture, rape, and disappearances being carried out, then there's no argument. But you're holding the Indian Army to a low standard.

Very few incidents. Azad Kashmiris are happy with Pakistan's policies for now towards them.

Probably just India trying to stir something up, but it's of such low intensity that it's a joke.

All very small scale. Probably 400 deaths in the last 10 years in all, compared to 30,000 in Indian occupied Kashmir.

Yes, 4 farmers bring killed by the Pakistani paramilitary units is wrong, if proved to be true. But it doesnt compare in scale to what's happening in Indian occupied Kashmir.

Pakistan tried twice and miserably failed : 

What I don't understand is why did India give the land back to the pakistanis???!!  charity maybe 

Is it by chance that these 'renegades' are all coincidentally muslim??  and is it also a coincidence that muslims are bombing religious places of worship and holy shrines in other countries as well?? (e.g. Iraq)   Is it just me or does anyone else see a pattern here ? 

Its funny how these jihadi groups also have a strong presence in Pakistan where they're allowed full fledged freedom. 

It is also a known fact that some kashmiri people, aided by outsiders have been terrorizing hindus for the last 3 centuries, you reap what you sew...tit for tat.

I doubt any hindu would want to attack his/her own temples...listen its a pathetic attempt for you to cover this up and i'll be frank with you India is at no cost pulling out of Kashmir even if Pakistan back off (which it obviously will not).

Pakistan fought India twice to a standstill, the third time in the 1971 war, a truce agreement was signed, but Pakistan conceded East Pakistan. Look at the size of India, look at the size of Pakistan. India could not manage to defeat Pakistan with numerical equipment, and a vastly greater military expenditure in the first two wars - the only reason East Pakistan was conceded was because the Indians combined with the Bangladeshis. Pakistan itself, or West Pakistan was not lost, just the Eastern flank but that was to be expected. How can you expect the Pakistanis to hold onto the Eastern side seperated by thousands of miles when the only way to haul heavy equipment there is by sailing round India and Sri Lanka. If the Bangladeshis had sided with West Pak, the outcome of that war too would have been different. Everything would have been fought to a standstill again, despite India being of 6 times the size of Pakistan, and the Indian Army also being about 4 times the size. 

On another point, the truce picture is always a source of amusement.

Some pandits are fighting with the Kashmiri Muslims, some are fleeing the war.

Hindus joining ranks of militants in Kashmir

SHAIKH AZIZUR RAHMAN IN NEW DELHI

WHEN Indian soldiers gunned down 18-year-old Hindu Kuldeep Singh along with seven Muslim militants in the Kashmiri border district of Doda in 2003, he was described by the army as an unwilling conscript in the mujahedeen's battle.

Security forces in Kashmir had all along assumed the militants were fighting an Islamic struggle that could never be supported by a Hindu.

But the killing last month of another Hindu militant and the arrest of two others adds to growing evidence that some of Kashmir's minority group willingly support the jihad of the region's Islamic extremists.

Indian forces killed Uttam Singh along with three other jihadis on August 19. The night-long gun battle in which he died came during an attempt by a group of Hizbul militants to kill or abduct an Indian Muslim soldier from his house in the border region of Kashmir.

Police later discovered 23-year-old Singh, alias Saifullah, was one of two Hindu sector commanders of Kashmir's largest Hizbul rebel group, which is fighting for the inclusion of the whole of Kashmir in Pakistan.

Police said that five years ago he crossed into Pakistan, where he was trained in arms and explosives. In 2003 he returned to India and was made commander of his group in Doda, leading about 120 militants, including seven Hindus.

Just three days after his death, police announced the capture of 25-year-old Hindu Virender Singh in New Delhi.

Police said he was a Hizbul operative in charge of supplying arms and funds to his jihadi colleagues on missions around the country.

On August 24, Hindu Hizbul militant Chattar Singh was arrested in Doda while carrying a pistol and grenades.

A senior officer at the defence ministry in New Delhi revealed that in the past three years, four Hindu militants had been killed fighting alongside the Kashmiri jihadis.

However, he would not accept the notion that they might be willing combatants.

"We have information that about a dozen Hindu militants are still active in Kashmir. We believe they were all forced to join militancy at gunpoint," the officer said.

"Being Hindus, they could never subscribe to the religious or political faith of the jihadis who are fighting for Kashmir's separation from Hindu-majority India."

That is not a view shared by Suresh Yadav, an Indian Border Security Force battalion commander, who served in Kashmir for three years. He said poverty was the key factor behind young Hindus joining the militancy in Kashmir.

"Mostly because of militancy in the border region of Kashmir in the last 16 years, economic growth has been stunted," he said.

"Hindu boys from poverty-stricken families in the border districts have joined the Islamic rebel groups who offer good pay packages to them while they fight, and also to their families in case of their deaths."

Since the insurgency erupted in the region in 1989, more than 125,000 Kashmiris have migrated out of the valley.

Of that number, 75% are Hindus and Sikhs and 25% are Muslims. Hindus comprise 28% of Kashmir's 10.5 million population.

Officially, 45,000 people have died in Kashmir since 1989. However, the unofficial count is more than 80,000.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=18 87482005 

You could look at a pattern in that way. You could also look at other patterns such as the only two Hindu majority countries, India, and Nepal, are involved in either bloody civil wars (Nepal, the Maoists), or wars with their neighbours (India, Pakistan and China).

Pakistan does not control any Kashmiri fighting outfit. It has influence over some, and has banned those outfits that are foreign. The only legitimate groups are those formed from the Kashmiri people themselves.

There's disagreement with your first part. Kashmir was indeed ruled by a Hindu, Maharajah Hari Singh and his family for centuries in recent times, even though the majority of his population was Muslim. The Kashmiris were terrorized by this man who ruled them in the early 1930s when a mass uprising in Kashmir occurred against him. What did he do, he killed everyone in sight. There's terrorism for you.

I'm not covering up anything. I could well be Muslims, it could well be Hindus. Either way it in no way compares to the loss of life occurring in Kashmir or that has occurred, the majority of the responsibility has to stick with the Indian Army on this. Though I also think you're wrong on India budging on this, it'll budge as soon as the whole of Kashmir has had enough, as has been shown by all the Hindu Pandits joining the ranks of the Kashmiri resistance groups. Even though Pakistan isnt supporting them physically, unlike India's physical interference in the Pakistan civil war, the result I think will be India losing Kashmir.

I await your responses, with baited breath