What are the best armies ever?

that was no answer to my ligth cavalry question...besides, i can't seriously believe that the Swedish cavalry was better than thsoe of Austrians, Poles, Russians or Ottomans...

Originally posted by Temujin Swedsich cavalry best? did they even had light�cavalry like Austrian Croats or Cossacks? and i greatly doubt the quality of Scandinavian horses....

Originally posted by Temujin that was no answer to my ligth cavalry question...besides, i can't seriously believe that the Swedish cavalry was better than thsoe of Austrians, Poles, Russians or Ottomans...

Nothing wrong with Scandinavian horses, they were small but extremely sturdy, with lots of endurance and very apt for battle. There was no light cavalry in the Swedish army of that era, and we can't compare with the Ottomans, since they never met. Given the battle results however, I'd definitely rate them over or at least on par with Russian and German cavalry. For example, in a mele� at Fraustadt a regular dragoon unit defeated and routed the cr�me de la cr�me of the Saxon army, the Garde du Corps, which had a splendid reputation, at Poltava the Swedish cavalry routed the larger Russian, and the Croats you mentioned were defeated by outnubmered Swedish cavalry at L�tzen.

We suffered a great defeat against polish heavy cavalry at Salaspils (Kirkholm) 1605, but they learned from that bitter lesson and reorganized the cavalry - turning it into an agressive and highly effective organization. Gustavus Adolphus made a great use of cavalry in the 30 years war

Battle of Trzciana 1629 proved Gustavus Adolfus reformed cavalry was still not problem for winged hussars

Karl X Gustav even crushed the cream of polish cavalry (including hussars and tatars) at Warsawa

Charge of 8 banners of polish hussars (about 900 horses)  at Warsaw have broken 3 regiments of reiters  and messed 2 additional regiments of second line (in total more than 2000 soldiers). Charge has been broken by lateral fire of infantry regiments

 

You can believe what you want, but several historical examples show that the swedish cavalry indeed were better than Austrians, Poles and Russians

Swedish cavalry was equal opponent for polish medium cavalry (cossacks, pancerni) but not for the hussars. In case of fight with hussars swedish cavalry was sucesfull only when supported by infantry.

Edited by TJK

Originally posted by Temujin i thought this is about best cavalry and not which cavalry won most engagements.

What goes then? Fanciest uniform?

besides, at the battle of Fehrbellin 1675 prince-elector Frederick Wilhelm of Brandenburg, called the great prince-elector defeated with 5.600 cavalry and 13 cannons, after an epic march from the palatinate, the Swedish army of 7000 infantry, 4000 cavalry and 38 cannons (casualties were 4000 Swedes and 500 Brandenburgians). there goes your�best cavalry...

Heh, you might need to check that up a bit.
Due to trouble between the two commanders, Wrangelx2, the retreating Swedish army was split, and Frederick Wilhelm manouvered well and attacked the isolated 7,000 men strong main army under Wollmar Wrangel. The Brandenburg army consisted of 5,000 cavaly, 800 dragoons+artillery deployed on the overlooking hill. Wrangel had the right wing defend against the attack, while the rest of the army continued the withdrawal. His troops were almost broken, however Carl Gustaf Wrangel arrived with parts of his troops, stopped the attacking Brandenburgers meanwhile the rest of the army united with the result that FW decided to call off the attack, and the Swedes continued the retreat. Casualties were 600 men and 1 gun. The Germans lost about 600 men too.

The fight took only a mere 2 hours and had hardly any military significance, but as you probably know it had huge strategical consequences - the rumour of Swedish invincibility was broken and Denmark and the Emperor declared war, starting the Scanian War.

Edited by Styrbiorn

During the 30-years war swedish cavalry was still developing. During the early 18th century though, the 'Karolinian' cavalry (not to be confused with the famous frankish karolingians a 1000 years earlier!) reached the peak of cavalry perfection in the swedish army

Karolinian cavalry:

http://hem.passagen.se/nykopinginsats/caroline.jpg

Originally posted by Alparslan Originally posted by Mangudai Swedish cavalry perhaps never met the ottoman cavalry, but the small 50 -men swedish infantry at Bender managed to give the 10 000 turks (including the sipahi and tatar horsemen) a match, before being overwhelmed and captured I do not know about Swedish cavalary units but;  10 000 Turks against 50 Swedish............ What is this? I do not think that Turks collect and organize an army of 10 000 units to capture 50 persons. Where did you read it? Is it a believable history? If Swedish cavalary or units were that much powerful why Sweden has been beaten by Russia? If I am not mistaken your king came to Turkey to demand help against Russia and we beat Russia at Prut battle in 1711.  I can not imagine how powerful a Swedish army of 30 000 soldiers.

Well it'sa long story, but after the disaster at Poltava 1709, the swedish king Karl XII fled to his ally - the sultan. The king and his staff was lodged at a mansion in Bender, and in 1713 the sultan tried to remove him by force (the king was too annoying with all his demands on his hosts), surrounding the mansion with an entire army of 10 000 men (he didn't knew that the king only had 50 men with him). So the ottoman soldiers stormed the mansion and took the king prisoner after the swedes had put up a desperate resistance. Casualties were light on both sides, but the king was wounded. As you see, it was not a battle - rather a voilent arrest.

Why was Sweden beaten by Russia then? Well the answer is quite simple - the russians had, just like in WW2 - a never ending resource of manpower and soldiers, whereas the swedes had to fight in many fronts. Sweden could field about 50 000 men (which had to be used in many fronts across Europe), the Russians could counter with several 100 000's men. If the russians lost 10 000 men dead - fine, no problem, they could always replace the casualties. If the swedes lost 1000 men - it was a great loss that could not be replaced 

Edited by Mangudai

Originally posted by Temujin lol, this is the�Swedish mythology thread, that's all i can say...

What part of it is mythology then?

and if the Swedes were retreatig or not, what does that change? defeat is defeat

Too bad you won't find a single military historian agreeing with you.

Sweden held out a long time.Denmark had over 40 000 men in the army and Norway 15 000.I do not know how many men Swedens smaller enemies like Saxony had but the strength of the Russian army has already been mentioned and the Swedes were really outnumbered.

btw i have heard that the Swedes could field 71 000 men at that time.Heard it at Skalman.

Originally posted by TJK We suffered a great defeat against polish heavy cavalry at Salaspils (Kirkholm) 1605, but they learned from that bitter lesson and reorganized the cavalry - turning it into an agressive and highly effective organization. Gustavus Adolphus made a great use of cavalry in the 30 years war Battle of Trzciana 1629 proved Gustavus Adolfus reformed cavalry was still not problem for winged hussars

If Trzciana or Honigfelde proved anything it was that victory goes to the army which is not caught on the march and has the last fresh reservs. Unlike the army of Koniecpolski and Von Arnim Gustav Adolfs's army was force tofigth the battle in the 4 parts in which it marched. It never had time to deploy all units together.

In the end the outcome of the battle was not decided by the hussars but by von Arnims cuirassiers it was they who turned what was a costly draw for the Swedes into a defeat. They turned back Swedish counteratatcks at two critical times, first when Fieldmarshall Wrangel counter attacked with 2150 cavalry at the village of Straszewo. The second time at Pulkowitz where they turned the dead-locked combat between Poles and Swedes in Polish favour and finaly decided the battle. 

Karl X Gustav even crushed the cream of polish cavalry (including hussars and tatars) at Warsawa

Charge of 8 banners of polish hussars (about 900 horses)  at Warsaw have broken 3 regiments of reiters  and messed 2 additional regiments of second line (in total more than 2000 soldiers). Charge has been broken by lateral fire of infantry regiments

There were no 'reiters' in the Swedish army in 1656, 'Reiter'cavalry was a troop type that belonged to the 16th century, not the 17th Century. It wa sonly poles that continued to call 'western' cavalry rajatars/reiters long after the troops equiped that way had disapered.

Polish hussars did break through 3 squadrons(not regiments) of native Swedish cavalry (Uppland and Smaland) and then got stuck in combat with Sinclair and Hammerskiold regiments in the 2nd line. Then they were counter-charged an defeated by the regiments of the 3rd line. Any flankign fire was from the other cavalry of the 2nd line. Swedish army deployed it's infantry in the first line and since hussars reached and slightly pushed back the 2nd line they were at least 150-200 meters behind the swedish infantry (if not deeper) and the Swedish infantry brigades would have had to exposed their backs the rest of the polish army in order to fire at the hussars. (Not to mention that there were several squadrons of Swedish cavalry in the line of fire) So there was no lateral fire by any infantry regiments. The Polish hussar charge at Warsaw was beaten back by the pistols and swords of the Swedish cavalry

 

You can believe what you want, but several historical examples show that the swedish cavalry indeed were better than Austrians, Poles and Russians

Swedish cavalry was equal opponent for polish medium cavalry (cossacks, pancerni) but not for the hussars. In case of fight with hussars swedish cavalry was sucesfull only when supported by infantry.

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False, Erik Soop's squadron broke hussars during the battle of Tczew (august 17th 1627) wihtout any infantry support.

The German cuirassier squadrons of Wrangel and Streif and the mtd arqubusier regiment of the Rhine Count Ottow Ludwig broke Potocki's hussaria att Grozno in 1629. Once again without infantry support.

Polish hussars were beaten at Golombi, Gniezno and Filipow in 1656 (without infantry support) 

 

Originally posted by Captain_Gars The German cuirassier squadrons of Wrangel and Streif and the mtd arqubusier regiment of the Rhine Count Ottow Ludwig broke Potocki's hussaria att Grozno in 1629. Once again without infantry support.

is this actually a pro-swedish argument...?