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Can Trkiye Enter to northern ıraq??
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Lmprs 
Arch Duke 
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
 Topic: Can Trkiye Enter to northern ıraq??Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 13:24 |
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Even if Turkish army invades N. Iraq, how does it have anything to do with settlements? PKK militans dwell in camps near mountains, not in towns or cities.
By the way, the number of PKK terrorists in Turkish soil is at least ten times more than the ones' in Iraq. |
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DayI
Sultan 
Joined: 30-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2408 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:21 |
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Is that a threat?  You did sound like propaganda minister of Saddam for a moment 
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Bu m覺nt覺ka'n覺n Day覺's覺
[IMG">http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg"> |
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Batu
Baron 
Joined: 31-Aug-2006 Location: Barad-dur Online Status: Offline Posts: 405 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:23 |
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Turkomans are not getting well with Kurds.Mosul and Kerkuk were
turkoman cities but whe the peshmerga came the Turkomans had to ran for
their lives.
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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:28 |
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Why are you so confident? |
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Batu
Baron
Joined: 31-Aug-2006 Location: Barad-dur Online Status: Offline Posts: 405 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:33 |
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why dont you believe in your country's military might?
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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:50 |
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In conventional warfare, US is ten times stronger than Turkey. I think you know how they are faring in Iraq right now. 
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Mortaza
Tsar 
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:52 |
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because It was a failure against PKK. All power is under the hand of army, and It did not destroy pkk.
why should I trust my army at Iraq when It cannot destroy pkk at turkey? It is sad but reality, our army is good only against their own unarmed people.
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DayI
Sultan
Joined: 30-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2408 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 15:22 |
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I think the time is come to change some military personnel, after fiasco's this month (modernizing f-16's) i think people are beginning to realize that our army has lost some prestige. If you surf on some Turkish military sites, you'll realize (Turkish) people start to complain, critize Turkish army... |
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Bu m覺nt覺ka'n覺n Day覺's覺
[IMG">http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg"> |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 15:43 |
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It is difficult to modernize army, because noone audit army. They are boss of themself
people(Standart ones, not people who interest military) are not aware of the fact that our army is not good. because army and nationalist feed people with propaganda that our army is best.(and Turks are powerful.)
When a soldier died, noone ask why army could not protected this soldier or why army still could not finished PKK. They just say vatan sagolsun.
I think our army is a little similar with Yeniceris.Not a powerful army, not high technology(We have biggest army of Europea but result?), ineffective , interested much with politics and greatly corrupted.(Why older generals become COE after they left army? what the hell they know about management. Of course.) Aslında, kurmay albayın askere gelen muzu caldığını bile g顤dm. Ama ingilizcesini fazla ayıp olacaktı.
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Bulldog
Caliph 
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 15:56 |
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The Turkish millitary could wipe out Pkk Terrorism in a month if it wanted to, what you have to realise is that this is not a conventional war, its a dirty terrorist conflict. Now, if the millitary was to wipe out their presence they could easily do this. That isn't the problem, things would be fine for a few month's and then another outside financer would organise, fund and arm another Terrorist movement. Turkey needs to create a situation in which its borders are secured as they are the immediate threat. Its amazing that the country actually survived during the Cold-War era almost a miracle. Her Eastern borders had the Soviets arming and funding initially Leftists which when failed they turned to extremist Marxism hence DHKP/C and Pkk Terrorist Org. Then there was Syria in alliance with the Soviets who infact trained and began Pkk in the Bekaa valley which has been a breeding ground for countless amounts of Terrorist orgs. There beef was the Hatay region and destabilising Turkey to please the Soviet allies and themselves. Also Greece helped the Pkk spread.
Today the situation is far more stable for Turkey, she has good relations with Bulgaria and improving one's with Greece. There is no Soviets anymore, Georgia is an ally, Azerbaycan and Turkey are like the same country, Syria has much bigger problems on its plate and like Iran has now been stabbed with its own sword as now the U.S is using Pkk to cause chaos in Syria and Iran with groups like Pejak.
The main threat left for Turkey is now Northern Iraq, if she can deal with this problem, not only eliminate the millitary presence but regional financers, media links, people high up who are connected and bringing arms and so on, in other words she has to destroy the entire organisation from its roots and anybody linked in any sort of way giving absolutely no mercy. Slowly, she is pushing Pkk presence into North Iraq, waiting for them to build up there, when the time is right and the logistics available they'll probobly enter.
If this threat is pacified it would have been a successfull foreign policy over the last 30 years, from having every border country as an enemy to having practically all as an ally.
However, this is Iraq, so anything should be expected and anything can happen nothing is simple or black and white. The millitary will only wipe out Pkk Terrorism if they can totally erradicate it and make sure that it has secured all borders to stop any border country trying to start another Terror Org.
p.s Murtaza, if Turkey didn't have a powerfull millitary it wouldn't have survived till today, if your weak in the region your finished and that's a fact, most people in Turkey support the army and infact see it as the least corrupt of the organisations in the country and one that represents people most. The poor kids can become Pasha but the poor kid's cannot become Basbakan. Emir Demiri Keser, most people don't fear millitary as they are a part of it or have family in it, plus alot of people like strong leader's who get things done instead of weak inefficient one's who get pushed around  Oh and they are great at management, are totally professional and can creat fantastic organisational efficiency, if you can run an army you can run any organisation.Edited by Bulldog - 19-Jan-2007 at 16:04 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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DayI
Sultan
Joined: 30-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2408 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:07 |
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Remember Osman Pamukoglu, he did one of the greatest operations against PKK in 93-94, killed more then 2000 PKK terrorists and guess what he got retired in 96... have a look at this http://trmilitary.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5317&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
A note, I dont say they are bad instead of they are still strong have much better equipments then his neighbors but the time is come to criticize them. Ottomans threated Yeniceris much better then Turkish army today, they equiped their Yeniceris with all the best they had. Ah Osmanli ahhhh... Edited by DayI - 19-Jan-2007 at 16:10 |
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Bu m覺nt覺ka'n覺n Day覺's覺
[IMG">http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg"> |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:09 |
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The Turkish millitary could wipe out Pkk Terrorism in a month if it wanted to, what you have to realise is that this is not a conventional war, its a dirty terrorist conflict.
Realy? so why are we fighting 20 years? Infact Army had all powers, she forced people to leave their villages, burned forests, but she could not destroy pkk. A war is dirty thing. It is true, they can never destroy PKK, but what the 300 pkk terrorists doing at Tunceli?
That isn't the problem, things would be fine for a few month's and then another outside financer would organise, fund and arm another Terrorist movement.
Standart turkish approach, everytime someone outside of Turkey is guilty.
Turkey needs to create a situation in which its borders are secured as they are the immediate threat.
It is army job to secure borders and army failed. Now we hope USA and Iraq will secure our borders with iraq.
Her Eastern borders had the Soviets arming and funding initially Leftists which when failed they turned to extremist Marxism hence DHKP/C and Pkk Terrorist Org. Then there was Syria in alliance with the Soviets who infact trained and began Pkk in the Bekaa valley which has been a breeding ground for countless amounts of Terrorist orgs. There beef was the Hatay region and destabilising Turkey to please the Soviet allies and themselves. Also Greece helped the Pkk spread.
Noone is saying PKK is a gang. It is why we need army. For gangs we have police.
The main threat left for Turkey is now Northern Iraq, if she can deal with this problem, not only eliminate the millitary presence but regional financers, media links, people high up who are connected and bringing arms and so on, in other words she has to destroy the entire organisation from its roots and anybody linked in any sort of way giving absolutely no mercy.
how? Army cannot destroy PKK even at Turkish soil(where army had knowledge about topografy.), do you realy think Turkish army can destroy pkk at iraq? Infact I think we are incapable of destroying PKK at iraq. We entered iraq before and before. No gain only pain.
If this threat is pacified it would have been a successfull foreign policy over the last 30 years, from having every border country as an enemy to having practically all as an ally.
My friend, every country have some enemy. It is why we have army. If we have only allies, why do we pay these guys money?
Their job is to produce security, that is why they get money. If they cannot give security to us, They are failed. Easy.
They get what they want at eastern Turkey and they could not give what we want.
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:19 |
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p.s Murtaza, if Turkey didn't have a powerfull millitary it wouldn't have survived till today, if your weak in the region your finished and that's a fact,
what? Even we had no army, neither greece, nor iraq or syria can power to enter ankara. We should compare our army with countries who have same population. Not greece, syria or iraq. I should add, even a win against greece is not sure.
most people in Turkey support the army and infact see it as the least corrupt of the organisations in the country and one that represents people most.
True, army is see as not corrupted. why? Because noone audit them.
Secondly no, Turkish people dont think army represent them. They never voted parties that supported by army, even after coups.
The poor kids can become Pasha but the poor kid's cannot become Basbakan.
Firstly for your information, most our our basbakan begins their life as poor. Secondly wrong, search army and state, you will see a lot people who have ottoman pasa ancestors. Infact I find it ironic, son of ottoman pasas accuse ottomans.
Emir Demiri Keser, most people don't fear millitary as they are a part of it or have family in it, plus alot of people like strong leader's who get things done instead of weak inefficient one's who get pushed around
whattt?? all people afraid army like sh*t. even our goverments afraid army. And as I said before, our army is inefficent.
Oh and they are great at management, are totally professional and can creat fantastic organisational efficiency, if you can run an army you can run any organisation.
My friend, You have no idea about management do you? You cannot order customers. Oh wait, Of course you can order customers, If this customers are army. Reality is that, they employ generals, because It is easy way to sell something to army. running army is same with running any organization? haha funny.
A note, I dont say they are bad instead of they are still strong have much better equipments then his neighbors but the time is come to criticize them.
I agree about neighbors but well, becoming better than syria, iraq, georgia, bulgaria, greece, or armenia is not realy enough for Turkey.
And I cannot say we are better than Iran(and have some suspect about greece.)
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:27 |
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have a look at this http://trmilitary.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5317&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 now, this is more sad than I think. He is saying that we cannot do any thing about north iraq. |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:46 |
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Mortaza
Realy? so why are we fighting 20 years?
I explained it, read what I wrote, eliminating it with hostile neighbours and it would be a matter of time before they created a new Terrorist Org, it's not a conventional war its very mucky. For it to be eliminated borders firstly need to be secured and at most countries need to be on good relations.
Mortaza
It is army job to secure borders and army failed.
Turkey's borders are ALOT safer than 30 years ago, its progressing.
Mortaza
how? Army cannot destroy PKK even at Turkish soil(where army had knowledge about topografy.), do you realy think Turkish army can destroy pkk at iraq? Infact I think we are incapable of destroying PKK at iraq. We entered iraq before and before. No gain only pain.
Read what I wrote.
It can only be destroyed when the time is right, when the neighbour countries have a more passive stance and are not interested in war's anymore.
Mortaza
My friend, every country have some enemy. It is why we have army. If we have only allies, why do we pay these guys money?
If your army is powerfull enough nobody will want to be an enemy as they'll know the concequence
Mortaza
what? Even we had no army, neither greece, nor iraq or syria can power to enter ankara. We should compare our army with countries who have same population. Not greece, syria or iraq. I should add, even a win against greece is not sure.
Don't be so sure, look at Israel small country but can take on all its larger neighbours.
Also don't forget at the time there was the Soviet's, they would have swept into Turkey easily if they felt there would be no millitary resistance.
Mortaza
Secondly no, Turkish people dont think army represent them.
Most people you talk with have respect for the millitary are you going to deny this?
Mortaza
whattt?? all people afraid army like sh*t. even our goverments afraid army. And as I said before, our army is inefficent.
Really, so you represent everyone do you, let's go and ask the first thousand people we come across and get their response, be honest what will most people say
Millitary is not a problem to most people, its not like Latin America.A weak millitary in the middle east means your FINISHED, don't think your in some lovely neighbourhood things can change tomorrow and if your not ready your be the next one out, look how many states are created, lost, ended etc if you don't have a strong millitary your a target and its time you opened your eyes to this reality.
Mortaza
My friend, You have no idea about management do you? You cannot order customers. Oh wait, Of course you can order customers, If this customers are army. Reality is that, they employ generals, because It is easy way to sell something to army. running army is same with running any organization? haha funny.
My friend do you know what it's like to run a large, medium or even small scale organisation. Were not talking about a shop in the tertiary industry, were talking about companies, businesses. Do you understand how these are run? what it takes to run them? it has nothing to do with customer's it has everything to do with Organisation, efficiency, production and quality. If your ineffective and keeping your army (workforce) in order, in motivating them, keeping everything organised, keeping to schedule, to date, to time then you will FAIL. The business world is like the millitary, you have to make key decisions or all your force will suffer and be lost as a result. Who has better organisational skill's? tell me.....A General running a corporation is a great idea, the CEO keeps everything in order, to lower level managers and workforce take care of customer services, providing good service and creating the good reputation. What is funny? could you tell me? what experience do you have in large national or global corporations, do you know how rutheless the business world is and how competitive it is. There is no space for weak, inefficient, leaders who have no organisational skills, a General who has good business and economics training would make a great CEO and there is nothing funny about it. Edited by Bulldog - 19-Jan-2007 at 16:47 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:54 |
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whatever. I dont discuss this, specially after this Good general= Good management thing.
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 17:39 |
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Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun Joking aside these are widely read business books.
Organisational skills are key to companies, the more disciplined you are, the better work ethic you have and ability to motivate staff the better it is for an organisation.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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DayI
Sultan
Joined: 30-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2408 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 19:11 |
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About the Turkish army's stance towards our government you have to watch Ceviz Kabugu today. Some Ittihat ve Terakki researchers made the link to the Turkish army today, it whas very interesting. I can only tell that to you in Turkish sorry, my english is limited about this :) |
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Bu m覺nt覺ka'n覺n Day覺's覺
[IMG">http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg"> |
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bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 23:52 |
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After the bombing of the bookstore in Diyarbekir by elements from within the army, I became convinced that there are at least some within it who do not want the conflict in the South-East to end. They've known war all their lives that it is probably inconceivable for them to stop it, without war nobody would need them, so they are trying to sustain the war.
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Batu
Baron
Joined: 31-Aug-2006 Location: Barad-dur Online Status: Offline Posts: 405 |
Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 00:58 |
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Turkey has the best mountain commandos ,Turkey has the most experienced
country in mountain warfare.this is what i read in M5 defence and
strat. : if the US army have been had to deal with PKK,the
mountains of Iraq would be a hell made of stone for them.a US military
expert said this.
dont compare the US army and Turkish army,one is a superpower the other one is not.compare it with Greece,Syria,Geogria,Azeris,Armenians.none of them dont stand a chance against Turkish Army(i got it too far, it would be a bloody war but Turkey would come victourous in the end against Greece (population is high you know)). we cant finish the PKK off becouse we cant enter the NOrthern IRaq:) yes there are more terrorists in Turkeys south-east but the camps are in Iraq,Iran and Syria.you have to destroy the camps first. we used to even enter Iran and Pkk was weakened but then they rised again from their graves becouse we enter northern Iraq less often.(yes we do we already cross the line in chasing operations) |
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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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