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Pakistans Stolen History

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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pakistans Stolen History
    Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 13:02
Originally posted by SpartaN117


Do you know what Greeks called Africa?
Libya is the answer, and according to your logic, the People of Libya can claim the entire African continent belonged to them?
 
Good example of Libya there I'd say.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 14:19

Do you know what Greeks called Africa?
Libya is the answer, and according to your logic, the People of Libya can claim the entire African continent belonged to them?

Good example of Libya there I'd say

Not really, in the Roman era "Africa" is modern Tunisa. The Africans are strictly speaking the tunisians in the same way the asians are the anatonlians. Later the name of a provence was extended to a whole continent.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 15:18
^^ Sorry, I should have explained why.
  • The word "India" was given to the subcontinent by the Greeks. The word "Libya" was given to Africa by the Greeks.
  • The name "India" was taken by the Indians to refer to a country. The name "Libya" was taken by the Libyans to refer to a country.
Looking at it, the two situations are similar from this point of view. Using the logic that some websites and historians use then, Libya could then claim all of Somalia's history and achievements, simply because the Greeks (somehow they have the last word on country names) called the region Libya at one point in their history! 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 18-Dec-2006 at 15:18
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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 18:02
just for clarification...

we don't actually know the ethnicity of the IVC people, do we? nor do we know their history, their language, where they went, where they came from, or anything. frankly, we don't really know anything about them.

i can agree to the claim, "pakistan is the home of the IVC today," because geographically, the IVC lands are in pakistan today. but that doesn't make the IVC people pakistani.

now, i'm not saying the IVC people are indian (in the modern sense of the word). but you can't say they are pakistani simply because 1000's of years ago, the IVC people occupied current day pakistani lands.

saying the IVC people were pakistani is like saying current day Iraqis are Sumerian.

are current day Americans related to Native Americans? are Australians really aborigines? are all Mexicans amerindians?
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 19:58

I thank all of you for provoking me with all appreciation of crap, cheap or shoddy material and all of you agreeing with each other.

 

The story of Pakistan has been contemporaneous event with lot of material evidences available everywhere.

 

Rehmat Ali Chowdahry and his three Cambridge students coined the word PAKISTAN as follows:

 

P = Punjab

A = Afghanistan

Ki = Kashmir

S =  Sind

Tan = Baluchistan

 

But, you know what Pakistan, Pakistanis have. Based on the name, can Pakistanis claim Afghanistan? Let us not forget the happenings of early 1930s, which took place just 75 years back. I used to discuss with the matter with those came from Lahore. So everyone would have access to documents for authenticity.

 

The Transfer of Power and other Pakistani documents prove that Pakistanis demanded Pakistan India not from anything else.  The correspondence of Jinnah with Gandhi, Nehru, Patel, Bose at one side and Periyar, Ambedkar and others at other side reveal more facts than what are generally discussed and debated.

 

Department of Archaeology and Museums, Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism, Government of Pakistan, Karachi has been bringing out Pakistan Archeology regularly. Kindly go through to find out the facts.

 

If Indian history has to broken down into more detailed sub-categories, so also Pakistans history. The population figures give different picture (before partition):

 

NWF Provinces Non-Muslims = 9.05

If Cantonment, Muncipality, Notified are wise figures are taken, in certain cases, Bannu (M) recorded 74.4%, Risalpur = 61.1% and so on.

Sind = 29.3%

Kindly go through the documents, as I do not want to repeat or tell known / recorded facts.

 

Similarly, the story of Indian and Pakistan flags are to be read separately to understand the colours and the logic / history etc., behind. The present flags are retained for the present entities (Anujkhamar could bring out more details, as he rebuked it as stupid).

 

I tried to avoid the racial interpretation, but all of you again and again delve upon Aryans and Dravidians (Sparta has gone to the extent of recording Pakistanis are not full blooded Aryans. Where do you get that? They are part Aryans. Then, he implies what? Pakistanis are partly aryans and partly what? TeleInduz asserts that there is absolutely ZERO proof that the ethnicity of the IV was Dravidian adding that the Brahuis  are genetically Aryans. Asko Parpola would not leave).

 

If Pakistanis call themselves as Aryans, then, Dravidians would be pitted against. Asko Parpola, Iravatham Mahadevan and others try to decipher IVC script in Dravidian language -Tamil! Is there any Pakistani-European language group, Pakistanni-Aryan language etc., accordingly?Would you correct them by telling that IVC people were Aryans and we are also Aryans and you should decipher in Aryans language? (Tariq Rahman has done something).

 

As you have been so emotional, attached and agitated too to IVC, the Tamils here also assert like that. I have already mentioned about the Aryan-Dravidian implication. This only harm and hamper the deciphering IVC script. In spite of bi-lingual script inscriptions, one group want to read in Tamil/Dravidian language and another Sanskrit/Aryan and thus, they do not meet and the undecipherment continues and Stevefarmer like people dub Harappans illiterate!

 

Dear friends, what is your stand here?

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  Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 20:48
Whats the Point calling IVC Indian, when India didnt exist before 1800?
And Republic of India was born in 1947.
Please for the love of God answer that before you go on a rant about Pakistan being born in 1947.

IVC is a part of Pakistani History, and Pakistanis are closest to the people of IVC, BECAUSE THE PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN HAVE ALWAYS LIVED IN THE REGION. NOT INDIANS!!!

Your logic never ceases to amaze me. With your current logic you would call Allama Iqbal Indian aswell.
Oh...sorry. You do call Allama Iqbal Indian. A guy who spent most of his life fighting to create Pakistan, came from a region which is now Pakistan, is known as Indian. Way to go people.
He should be called "British Indian" if people really want to be that way.

As for IVC,
Not only would India be created 4800 years later, but
Indian people have NOTHING to do with IVC,
Most settlements are not IN India.

Yet you still justify calling it Indian history, and more so, you want to argue about it by discussing Pakistans birth and without mentioning India's whatsoever.


Edited by SpartaN117 - 18-Dec-2006 at 20:51

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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 23:13

The entire discussion is on "Pakistan".

I note that you do not answer the specific querries, but go on sidetrack or deviate from the subject matter.

When facts are to be dealt with, we have to do so.

Otherwise, there is no meaning in such discussion or debate.



Edited by M. Nachiappan - 19-Dec-2006 at 00:13
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 00:02
Originally posted by AlokaParyetra

just for clarification...

we don't actually know the ethnicity of the IVC people, do we? nor do we know their history, their language, where they went, where they came from, or anything. frankly, we don't really know anything about them.


Well havent skeletons been found of these people...so their phenotypes could possibly be reconstructed. Maybe the heat does not preserve bodies as well as in colder climates, I dunno.

What we can assume reasonably is that they are now integrated in the people who live today in the Indus Valley regions and surrounding areas.

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


i can agree to the claim, "pakistan is the home of the IVC today," because geographically, the IVC lands are in pakistan today. but that doesn't make the IVC people pakistani.


Does it make Bharatis IVCers then? Can someone from Kerala, Calcutta, Bengal or Bihar claim the IVC heritage as their own because pakistanis have not been calling themselves the Indus Valley Civilization consistently for the past few thousand years?

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


now, i'm not saying the IVC people are indian (in the modern sense of the word). but you can't say they are pakistani simply because 1000's of years ago, the IVC people occupied current day pakistani lands.


What are the IVC people today then? Japanese? Ukranian? Moroccan?

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


saying the IVC people were pakistani is like saying current day Iraqis are Sumerian.


No, its like saying current day Iraqis WERE Sumerian.

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


are current day Americans related to Native Americans? are Australians really aborigines? are all Mexicans amerindians?


Is this question related to genetics, geography,  language or religion or what? Because I don't think Bharatis have "preserved" IVC culture, language and religion as well as Bharatis have preserved sanskrit language and the afghan and paki epics.
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  Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 06:08
People are assuming a lot of things here.

1. That modern Pakistanis have nothing to do with IVC, even though the people of Pakistan have lived in the Indus Valley for as long as history can be remembered.

2. That EVERY SINGLE PERSON of the Ivc moved out of Indus valley, if they even did move out. There is no evidence they moved out, unless they changed their lifestyle completely.

@M. Nachiappan

I was just pointing out that the "Pakistan was born in 1947" card cannot be used in any situation prior to the 1800s. So please stop using it.
India as a single entity is a very new thing. When people were referring to it in the past, they were talking about the entire subcontinent, (like Europe).

Ancient Indian is just as logical as Ancient European. It makes so much more sense to break down the histories into countries, instead of having a grouped up history for 1.6 billion people.

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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 10:11
Originally posted by maqsad

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra

just for clarification...

we don't actually know the ethnicity of the IVC people, do we? nor do we know their history, their language, where they went, where they came from, or anything. frankly, we don't really know anything about them.


Well havent skeletons been found of these people...so their phenotypes could possibly be reconstructed. Maybe the heat does not preserve bodies as well as in colder climates, I dunno.

What we can assume reasonably is that they are now integrated in the people who live today in the Indus Valley regions and surrounding areas.


So far, scientist think the IVC people were dravidian (which is loosely defined to begin with). they make this assertion based mostly on art. if indeed they are dravidian, that would place them farther away from modern pakistanis.

anyways, how do you know they are integrated in the people who live there today? If i'm not mistaken, this is just a guess, isn't it?


Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


i can agree to the claim, "pakistan is the home of the IVC today," because geographically, the IVC lands are in pakistan today. but that doesn't make the IVC people pakistani.


Does it make Bharatis IVCers then? Can someone from Kerala, Calcutta, Bengal or Bihar claim the IVC heritage as their own because pakistanis have not been calling themselves the Indus Valley Civilization consistently for the past few thousand years?


No, i don't think Bharatis (i like that term. helps avoid confusion) can say they were the IVC people. in fact, i don't think anyone can say they are the IVC people without knowing more about the IVC.

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


now, i'm not saying the IVC people are indian (in the modern sense of the word). but you can't say they are pakistani simply because 1000's of years ago, the IVC people occupied current day pakistani lands.


What are the IVC people today then? Japanese? Ukranian? Moroccan?


that's my point. we don't know. we can't just assign any sort of ethnicity or culture  just from where they live. there were once greek people who lived in what is now pakistan. were they pakistani also?


Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


saying the IVC people were pakistani is like saying current day Iraqis are Sumerian.


No, its like saying current day Iraqis WERE Sumerian.


but they weren't. 75% of iraq today is composed of Arab (read: semetic) people, whereas the Sumerians were non-semetic people. Sumerian culture shares no resemblance to Iraqi culture. Iraqis today speak Arabic and Kurdish for the most part, both of which share little resemblance to Ancient Sumerian. the only tie Iraqis have with the Sumerians is the fact they both occupy/occupied the same land.


Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


are current day Americans related to Native Americans? are Australians really aborigines? are all Mexicans amerindians?


Is this question related to genetics, geography,  language or religion or what? Because I don't think Bharatis have "preserved" IVC culture, language and religion as well as Bharatis have preserved sanskrit language and the afghan and paki epics.

it is related to mostly genetics and language. how do you define an ethnicity or a people? Do we define them by genetics and linguistics, or by where they lived?

my point is this: until we know who the IVC people really are they are not really part of anyone's history. they are their own history, they are their own people.
[/QUOTE]

Edited by AlokaParyetra - 19-Dec-2006 at 10:30
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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 10:25
Originally posted by SpartaN117

People are assuming a lot of things here.

1. That modern Pakistanis have nothing to do with IVC, even though the people of Pakistan have lived in the Indus Valley for as long as history can be remembered.


true, but there is a point in south asian history (after the fall of the IVC to the rise of maurya) that history really doesn't remember well. before you can connect the IVC to the people of pakistan, you first need to fill in all the gaps.


2. That EVERY SINGLE PERSON of the Ivc moved out of Indus valley, if they even did move out. There is no evidence they moved out, unless they changed their lifestyle completely.

well, if you believe either the AIT or AMT, the people in that region were displaced by Indo-Aryans. regardless of what you think caused the downfall of the IVC, we know that the cities were abandoned, which would suggest they migrated to a new location. where they went, no one knows.

and let's say that there were still IVC people that stayed in Pakistan. how many is enough? what if the majority of the people moved to Afganistan? wouldn't then modern day afganis be the remnants of the IVC people? what if most of them moved south? wouldn't modern day indians be the remnants? i'm sure there were still IVC people who stayed in Pakistan. but without knowing what happened to them, where the majority of them went, etc., you can't really say either way.

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  Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 11:02
Nobody knows what happened to the IVC people. But We only have their cities left. So Pakistan should be called the Home of IVC instead of India

I am saying that Republic of India is not linked to IVC, and it should stop stealing the history.

And using India to describe everyone in South Asia is wrong. It should be stopped. Its getting obvious that the Term India is just being used to cut Pakistanis out of their own history.

Ancient Pakistan is the correct term for any history within our own borders.


Edited by SpartaN117 - 19-Dec-2006 at 11:03

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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 15:39
Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


So far, scientist think the IVC people were dravidian (which is loosely defined to begin with). they make this assertion based mostly on art. if indeed they are dravidian, that would place them farther away from modern pakistanis.

anyways, how do you know they are integrated in the people who live there today? If i'm not mistaken, this is just a guess, isn't it?



Its just a guess but it is based on the most likely occurence.

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


No, i don't think Bharatis (i like that term. helps avoid confusion) can say they were the IVC people. in fact, i don't think anyone can say they are the IVC people without knowing more about the IVC.


I was not implying that even the Sindhis and South Punjabis are the IVC people. I was merely stating that these would be the populations into which most of their genes were assimilated.

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


now, i'm not saying the IVC people are indian (in the modern sense of the word). but you can't say they are pakistani simply because 1000's of years ago, the IVC people occupied current day pakistani lands.


If IVC skeletons were compared then a more educated guess could be made don't you think?

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


that's my point. we don't know. we can't just assign any sort of ethnicity or culture  just from where they live. there were once greek people who lived in what is now pakistan. were they pakistani also?


No but some pathan tribes could have 10% macedonian admixture. Greece just had a forward colony or two in afghanistan/pakistan a few millennia ago, most of their population was still back  in greece. And for all we know they may have mostly formed the intelligencia, top soldiers and merchants while the rest of the masses were locals. IVC however was headquartered in the Indus river  metropolises. A much heavier impact on the current day populations would have been made.

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


but they weren't. 75% of iraq today is composed of Arab (read: semetic) people, whereas the Sumerians were non-semetic people. Sumerian culture shares no resemblance to Iraqi culture. Iraqis today speak Arabic and Kurdish for the most part, both of which share little resemblance to Ancient Sumerian. the only tie Iraqis have with the Sumerians is the fact they both occupy/occupied the same land.


Sumerians did end up being absorbed genetically, linguistically and culturally. Iraq would have taken most of them. "Arab" and "semitic" is a pretty vague term. Do you mean beduins or Syrians converted to the arab language? It does make a difference. But I do see your point.

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


it is related to mostly genetics and language. how do you define an ethnicity or a people? Do we define them by genetics and linguistics, or by where they lived?

my point is this: until we know who the IVC people really are they are not really part of anyone's history. they are their own history, they are their own people.


Well we don't really know what language they spoke because their script has not been deciphered yet! Their language could be related to Mongolian, Russian, Arabic, Sanscrit even. For all we know they could be the original creators of Sanscrit and Avestan. Scripts, genes, language and culture can criss-cross at times.
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  Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 19:11
But really. If there is such an obvious mistake in current recorded history, which also happens to offend the people of an entire country, who do you go to?



Edited by SpartaN117 - 19-Dec-2006 at 19:16

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  Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 19:14
@AlokaParyetra

This argument is not about, where the people of IVC went, or what their language was. Those questions are impossible to answer atm, even though some Indians already have answered them.

This argument is about Pakistan not having a shared history with Republic of India. They are 2 different people now, and they were only ever united during British Raj.

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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 20:03
Originally posted by SpartaN117

But really. If there is such an obvious mistake in current recorded history, which also happens to offend the people of an entire country, who do you go to?



How about starting in wikipedia, gain some momentum and then take the challenge elsewhere. I already signed up for an account on wikipedia, since I had heard anyone can contribute, and changed a couple of details about panini and created a brand new[almost empty] entry on the town of Shalatula which is right on the Indus itself[not sure how much it is related to the Southern IVC though]. While I was filling in stuff about Shalatula I discovered that besides India robbing ancient Pakistani History, the Arabs, French and Italians did a good job too! Turns out Panini had a brother called  Pingala who was the first person responsible for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_numbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_sequence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_triangle

The Binary numbers and Fibonacci sequence has been corrected, but Pascal's triangle still needs to be corrected and the other two need to be refined and linked around better.  Maybe there is a way to pop in Pakistan here and there as a first step to making people understand exactly where this happened. Because changing "Ancient India" to "Ancient Pakistan" is going to have to come at a much later time after a lot more work. But wikipedia has to be the first place that it happens since it will be the easiest.

I did not touch the IVC wikipedia session yet since it is very detailed but I am sure a lot of work needs to be done there too, its just going to take a little more research and time.

The looting that is going on at this very moment is just ridiculous, everywhere you look some robber is running off with stolen pakistani history.
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  Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 21:03
I would love to have you as a VIP member on pakhub. The reason I created Pakhub was a home base for all the Pakistanis on the same mission.

I have already been on Wikipedia, and banned, (by an Indian mod for that matter). I will give it a few more shots.

I think its ridiculous that Allama Iqbal is known as an Indian. The claim they are referring to him as someone from the Indian subcontinent, hence Indian.
How lame does that actually sound?

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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 23:01
I will be there as it builds up. I think we need a few people to work the wikipedia site and also work out a strategy how to change things over there little by little. Maybe you offended some Indian by doing something too suddenly I don't know. Also, that site it ontrolled at the very top by influential jews according to their own testimonials so one has to watch oneself and tread carefully so as not to arouse xenophobia in these people.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 23:51
Who is Pingala?
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 01:41
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingala

From 2500 years ago.... Pingala is the little brother of the famous grammarian Panini. Panini is the guy who turned sanskrit/avestan into such a logically grammatized and organised language that nobody has been able to produce any changes to any language since then or ever that matched the logical consistencies of Sanskrit. He was born in a town on the bank of the river Indus near peshawar very close also to Taxila university[where he went later]. Today some techie people consider the sanskrit that panini produced to be a good enough model to design high level computer programming languages because all its rules were made 100% consistent and based on layers and layers of nested, predictable derivatives.

Anyway his little brother was Pingala...a genius mathematician who was the first to do work with binary numbers, the fibonacci numbers, Pascal's triangle...all that work was taken by the greeks[I am guessing] and then later "reappeared" as the original works of Arabs, Italians and French centuries later lol. Bharatis claim him as one of their own now of course.
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