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ataman View Drop Down
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Favorite Battle
    Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 01:45
 

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

 

The Swedish pikes were as far as I know not yet standardized so it's hard to tell how long they were.

 

I'd like to explain that my statement (that the length of Swedish pikes was almost 6 m) is based on Richard Brzezinski's Osprey about Polish Winged hussars. Brzezinski claims (p.49) that:

 

'[before 1616] Swedish pikes had a regulation length of 5,98m, reduced in 1616 to 5,3 m'

 

However Brzezinski also claims (in his other Osprey - this time about GA's army) that (p. 20):

 

'The few surviving Swedish pikes that have not been drastically shortened in recent years to overcome storage problems are between 5,2 metres (17ft.) and 5,4 metres (17ft. 8 in.) long. This ties in well with the regulation 9 Swedish ells (5,3metres) that Gustavus established in 1616. However, pikes often did not remain this length on campaign. Officers like Monro complained, apparently, to little effect about pikemen who cut off the lengths of their pikes as often seen upon marches, being very uncomely to see a squadron of pikes not all of one length.'

 

Styrbiorn, I think that we can agree that the pikes used at Kircholm were different in length, but in theory they should have 598 cm (and probably part of pikemen had such long pikes).

 

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

 

About 45% of the Swedish infantry were equipped with pikes or halberds.

 

It's not illogical, but yes, there were awful errors by the Swedish command that was the major reason to the slaughter. One awful error by the king to be precise. Despite vivid protests from his generals, the more or less battle-incompetent king Karl XI gave order to not only change formation but also leave its very easily defensible positions, a move that literally transformed the Swedish infantry into a bunch of sitting ducks for the Polish cavalry.

 

Styrbiorn, I agree that Karl IX ordered to leave very good position of Swedish army (BTW, he was provoked by simulated escape of Chodkiewicz's army), but can you quote any primary source which confirms that this move 'transformed the Swedish infantry into a bunch of sitting ducks'?

Do you think that Swedish infantry was so bad that it couldn't keep order during a slow march?

Anyway, there is the painting 'battle of Kircholm', painted few years after the battle by Peter Snayers. It shows hussars who are attacking Swedish pikemen. These pikemen are keeping good-tie order on the painting.

 

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

 

Add to that, when the Swedish cavalry were routed by the superior Polish, they hacked through and routed parts of its own infantry: sections of the right and the entire left wing, whereupon the disarrayed pikemen and musketeers were attacked and slaughtered by the pursuing Polish cavalrymen.

 

Well, here is common misconception. Swedish army was deployed in 3 echelons. The first one (it was composed only of Swedish infantry) was attacked and broken by direct attack of hussars (it was begining of the battle and it is described in Polish primary source univocally). After that the second echelon of Swedish army (it was composed of Swedish cavalry) was attacked by another hussars. These Swedish cavalry were routed and they mixed 3rd echelon of Swedish army (Swedish infantry). The hussars attacked and broke 3rd echelon of Swedish infantry after pikemen of these echelon were mixed by own cavalry.
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 05:54
Originally posted by ataman

 

Styrbiorn, I think that we can agree that the pikes used at Kircholm were different in length, but in theory they should have 598 cm (and probably part of pikemen had such long pikes).

 

 

 
Yep. Brzezinski is reliable.
 
Styrbiorn, I agree that Karl IX ordered to leave very good position of Swedish army (BTW, he was provoked by simulated escape of Chodkiewicz's army), but can you quote any primary source which confirms that this move 'transformed the Swedish infantry into a bunch of sitting ducks'?

Do you think that Swedish infantry was so bad that it couldn't keep order during a slow march?

 
 
It wasn't as much the slow march as the wheeling movement. At that time, before Gustav's reforms, that was a really dangerous move to make in front of an enemy. Of course I can't find such a quote, but that's what happens when you make this move.
 
And yes, he was provoked by the simulated escape: but his officers were not. The grievous mistake was Karl's, who didn't even nearly have the knowledge or talent his successors would have.
 
 
Anyway, there is the painting 'battle of Kircholm', painted few years after the battle by Peter Snayers. It shows hussars who are attacking Swedish pikemen. These pikemen are keeping good-tie order on the painting.

 

Well, first off the most famous picture of Poltava shows the Swedish army about 3 times as large as it actually was - most battle paintings are often more for show or infected by national romanticism than actual battle descriptions. But yes, some sections of the Swedish pikes did keep formation and managed to fight their way out of the battle. That's why there was any survivors at all.
 
 
Well, here is common misconception. Swedish army was deployed in 3 echelons. The first one (it was composed only of Swedish infantry) was attacked and broken by direct attack of hussars (it was begining of the battle and it is described in Polish primary source univocally). After that the second echelon of Swedish army (it was composed of Swedish cavalry) was attacked by another hussars. These Swedish cavalry were routed and they mixed 3rd echelon of Swedish army (Swedish infantry). The hussars attacked and broke 3rd echelon of Swedish infantry after pikemen of these echelon were mixed by own cavalry.
 
The Swedes were in echelon formation (aka checkerboard), yes, but the flanks were cavalry and the centre infantry, not infantry-cavalry-infantry in three lines.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 13-Jan-2007 at 05:57
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ataman View Drop Down
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 09:57
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

It wasn't as much the slow march as the wheeling movement. At that time, before Gustav's reforms, that was a really dangerous move to make in front of an enemy. Of course I can't find such a quote, but that's what happens when you make this move.
 
Styrbiorn, can you explain more, what kind of 'the wheeling movement' you write? I don't understand why this 'wheeling movement' was done.
 
 
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

And yes, he was provoked by the simulated escape: but his officers were not. The grievous mistake was Karl's, who didn't even nearly have the knowledge or talent his successors would have.
 
I agree.
 
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

The Swedes were in echelon formation (aka checkerboard), yes, but the flanks were cavalry and the centre infantry, not infantry-cavalry-infantry in three lines.
 
Styrbiorn, you are right. I've written about initial order of Swedish army. But it doesn't change one thing. The battle started with the charge of Wojna's 300 hussars (supported by 300 Courland reiters). They charged Swedish pikemen. It is univocally described in the primary source 'Nowiny z Inflant' by unknown member of the battle:
 
'Napadli na spiśniki, bo inaczy nie mogło bydź, przełomili nieprzyjaciela, nie bez szkody swojej' (they [Wojna's hussars + Courland reiters] charged pikemen, because there was no choice, they broke enemies - not withouth some losses)
 
Next sentence explains univocally that only after this event (after Wojna's hussars broke pikemen) Chodkiewicz ordered to attack Swedish reiters (those reiters who were on the flank of the first echelon of Swedish infantry):
 
'Kazał się potym podkać p. Dąbrowie z pułkiem jego z lewego rogu [...]'
 
So Swedish reiters couldn't mix pikemen earlier (I mean these pikemen who were charged by Wojna's hussars), because reiters were attacked later than pikemen.


Edited by ataman - 13-Jan-2007 at 14:24
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ulrich von hutten View Drop Down
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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 11:49

Folke, how can you have a favourite battle ?

Have you really any idea, what it means, when husbands, sons, brothers or fathers march onto a field of death ?
Have you ever listen to someone, who was sitting in a cellar during the bombs made an impact around him ?
Did you ever talk to someone who was dressed into an uniform, while he was 15 years old, to shoot down planes from the sky?
 
My favourite battles are those, that never happend !!

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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 11:50

Folks, how can you have a favourite battle ?

Have you really any idea, what it means, when husbands, sons, brothers or fathers march onto a field of death ?
Have you ever listen to someone, who was sitting in a cellar during the bombs made an impact around him ?
Did you ever talk to someone who was dressed into an uniform, while he was 15 years old, to shoot down planes from the sky?
 
My favourite battles are those, that never happend !!


Edited by ulrich von hutten - 13-Jan-2007 at 11:50

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 12:23
May I ask then, sir, why you choose Ulrich von Hutten as your namesake? The man who attempted to enforce the reformation by military means, when it clearly wasn't necessary?

Although, I do agree with you in principle one who studies history must enjoy its study, and with emotional detachment can find certain events highly interesting. Struggle is the ultimate expression of humanity, after all.


Edited by Zaitsev - 13-Jan-2007 at 12:24
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Posts: 93 		  Quote Svyturys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 12:25
Polish, swedish.. where is lithuanian..?
Every moment, like last, neither earth, nor sky don't calculate time. Left only one heart in scorched bosom. Throbing only drums again, calling us into battle.
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ataman View Drop Down
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 12:57
Originally posted by Svyturys

Polish, swedish.. where is lithuanian..?
 
Svyturys, do you have any ranocur to me Confused?
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Posts: 93 		  Quote Svyturys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 18:50
What? Of course not. I don't have, why? Just think that it isn't fair, when all says that it were only polish, while most of units were from Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
Every moment, like last, neither earth, nor sky don't calculate time. Left only one heart in scorched bosom. Throbing only drums again, calling us into battle.
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ataman View Drop Down
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 12:15
Originally posted by Svyturys

What? Of course not.
 
ok Smile
 
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Posts: 93 		  Quote Slick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 05:07
Originally posted by Quinnthology

I don't know if this has been a topic already because I'm new, but I was wonder what everyone's favorite battle is. This can be from any empire or civilization or time period. I'm trying to learn more about military history so I figured this would be a good way. Say your battle and then give a little bit of info on it.
 
My favorite battle is the Battle of New Orleans in 1814. Led by Andrew Jackson, the US forces were said to have taken down 2,000 British soldiers in half an hour, suffering only 70 casualties. Unfortunately it was two weeks after a peace treaty had been signed!
 
What about everyone else?
 
I like that one too, if only because it was done after the Treaty of Ghent was signed. I don't like Andrew Jackson, but he was an interesting guy I guess...
 
My favorite battle is the Battle of Sekigahara. It was fought at the end of the Sengoku-Jidai era in Japan. Basically the Sengoku-Jidai was the age of samurai and civil war. Sekigahara was fought between two prominent military commanders: Ishida Mitsunari, who was one of Hideyoshi's most prominent regents, and Tokugawa Ieyasu, who would go on to found the Tokugawa shogunate. The Battle of Sekigahara was the largest battle of the Sengoku-Jidai period. For a long time it was a stalemate between Ieyasu and Mitsunari. The tide of the battle turned when Ieyasu's men fired gunshots into the ranks of the previously inactive unit of Kobayakawa Hideaki. Kobayakawa Hideaki, who was supposed to be on the side of Ishida, then turned against his allies. Many other allegedly pro-Ishida generals defected to the Tokugawa side following this.
"Dai Ichi Dai Man Dai Kichi"
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Battle of Hydaspes(326 BC) - my favourite for Alexander's tactic

Edited by Bielas - 21-Jan-2007 at 12:24
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 14:02
anakkale(Gallipoli) War [1915]...


Edited by Tardu - 21-Jan-2007 at 14:03
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I think it is rather difficult to explicitly choose favourite battles, as I am sure there are brillaint clashes I've read about that currently do not find their way through my head. Nevertheless, I choose following battles as among my favourite ones;
 
Battle of Ujbardha. 12,000 Albanians defeated 80,000 Ottomans in 1457 under the command of George Kastrioti Scanderbeg. Excellent tactics deplyed by Scanderbeg prooved once again that the Sultan's numerically superior forces weren't invincible. The result were, according to some sources, 30,000 killed or captured Ottomans.
 
Battle of Poltava. The reason for this is because when reading about this battle, I was greatly impressed by the bravery of the Swedish warriors who met their end in Ukraine, 1709. Charles XII, an otherwise excellent strategist, was in great disadvantage here because of the wound he had received earlier, and because his army had become decimated as a result of continuous warfare and other factors.
 
Battle of Trafalgar. Here, a British fleet under admiral Nelson defeated a combined French & Spanish fleet 1805. The Napoleonic fleet was more numerous, yet nevertheless it faced a devastating defeat which confirmed the naval supremacy of the British. Nelson himself died, but no ship was lost, as opposed to 22 ships of a total 33 on the French/Spanish side. Really epic.
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The Battle of Gaugamela ~ One of the greatest battle in which Alexander the Great fought and defeat a Persian army nearly 5 times as larger than Alexander's. Using precise timing and a grand battle stratagy, the battle became a genius work in modern times as such odds against Alexander and yet he still manage to win.
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Battle of Anchiallus in 917 where 60 000 Bulgars massacred 70-75 000 Eastern Romans.

Have you ever heard of it?It's interesting to note that it was fought in a similar way as Cannae(Hannibal).First the eastern romans advance and the bulgars(=celts at Cannae) start falling back to confuse them that they're retreating.After the romans take the bait and start pursuing Tzar Simeon I of the Bulgars arrives from the rear behind a hill with the nobles and the heavily armed cavalry detachments and strikes at the back(=numidian cavalry at Cannae).The romans start retreating and they're easily crushed.This was the most bloody battle in the 10-th century i think(it happened in 917 A.D).
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 09:10
It is hard to say what my favorite battle is. It seems to be a toss up between Tours and Hastings. Tours because the idea of an organized army standing strong against, let alone defeating, the Muslim army at the time was unthinkable. I also happen to like the Francisca (though I'm not sure they were used at all or to great effect in this battle). This battle also began the idea of a standing army that was paid to train and fight year round and not just during the summer and parts of the spring. 
I also like the battle of Hastings because it was desicive and during Medeival wars decisive battles were, for lack of a better word, rare if they at all can be found outside this battle.  
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 22:32
FAVOURITE BATTLE!

what the hells is wrong with you people!

do you have any morals!

War is bad, people die, i doubt any of you people who sit on your computers and comment on it have never felt the impact of war before and never had a farther not come home..............
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 22:35
Originally posted by YES ITS KONOS!

FAVOURITE BATTLE!

what the hells is wrong with you people!

do you have any morals!

War is bad, people die, i doubt any of you people who sit on your computers and comment on it have never felt the impact of war before and never had a farther not come home..............
 
To the contrary, I think everyone understands this.  But it is not the point of this thread.  To "like" a particular battle because of its interest to military history, the tactics involved, etc. does not mean one is glorifying violence nor that they are denying that war is hellish.
 
Late Byzantine Military
Ottoman perceptions of the Americas
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 22:36
btw my favourite battle is.................the west midlands with Boudica's 230,000 vs Suetonius 10 000.
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