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Maju 
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 Topic: Vive la France !
Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 03:44 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by Maju
I'm not Spaniard, as you surey know. |
But you live in the Basque region of Spain, do you not? |
Don't be idiotic. I live in the Basque Country, which is not Spain nor France - but the Basque Country. That they have police detachments, governors, soldiers, etc doens't mean that they truly own the Country, just that they occupy it. Some day they will be gone. We are stubborn.
Edited by Maju
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Spartakus
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 07:26 |
Originally posted by red clay
Originally posted by Spartakus
Originally posted by red clay
Spartakus wrote
The right to work is a fundamental human right.
The right to work is indeed basic. We have a "right to work" law in the us. However, there is nothing that obligates anyone to hire you or to maintain your employment except you! Meaning your value to your employer- work ethic, skills, the tools that you own, education etc.
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It's basic ,isn't t?Then why there is unemployment,since it's basic?And who will give you the tools and skills,if your father is unemployed and you have to leave school in order to earn your living and survive? |
Hey man- There are no guarantees in life, someone wants a job they do what we all do, go and find one!! No one gives you tools and skills, you learn and earn them.  |
School gives you skills and knowledge,while Universities give you the expertise.How can sb learn sth if he leaves school at a very young age in order to survive and earn his living and does not go to university?Isn't he equal with the others?Well,according to the System,he isn't from the moment his father is unemployed or his family has serious economical problems.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Seko
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 09:42 |
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
Originally posted by Seko
European middle classes seem to have this one backwards then. This so-called revolution is meant to keep the status quo. Doesn't that sound a little weird? I thought past revolutions around the world were designed to bring change. Protesting is one thing but keeping businesses from successfully competing is another.
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this argument is allways used mostly by those who get on the gravy train. there is a change allready for those who lost and thos who will lose their jobs in the present. the very few who share the big cake under themselfes have no idea of that situation and it's aftermath.
but be sure , the working class ,middle class and other "loosers" of the globalisation will strike back, much sooner then others are thinking.
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The good ol' gravy train. Hope we could all have it so good. You make it sound like some of us didn't have it rough. The road to financial security is a difficult ride. Even then their are no gaurantees.
Revolutions have power when the movement crosses gender, age and most socio-economic barriers. Otherwise who will support it?
Back to reality. What change do you presume will come about from the French fight on this. For France's own good the protests better not be successfull. Her financial future is at stake. For some, an oppurtunity to get jobs they never had. For most a competitive spirit to keep the French economy on a steady course. Without that the subsidies will last only so long. That's my take on it.
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Genghis
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 10:27 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by Maju
I'm not Spaniard, as you surey know. |
But you live in the Basque region of Spain, do you not?
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Don't be idiotic. I live in the Basque Country, which is not Spain nor France - but the Basque Country. That they have police detachments, governors, soldiers, etc doens't mean that they truly own the Country, just that they occupy it.
Some day they will be gone. We are stubborn.
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Don't call me an idiot, I never call you one. On the map, where you live would lie within the borders of Spain, would it not?
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Genghis
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 10:33 |
Originally posted by DukeC
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by DukeC
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by DukeC
The problem isn't at the bottom rung of the workforce ladder it's at the top. In the mid 70s a shopfloor worker made $1 for every $30 made by those running the company. Now the number is $1 for every $1000 made by those at the top. Is it any wonder there's less and less to go around. |
If a CEO wants to do that, you have no right to stop him, it is his business and he can operate it as he sees fit, if workers don't like, they can quit and get a new job at somewhere with less earnings discrepancies, no one is forcing him to work there.
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Legally you may be correct, but ethically is another matter. There are such things as antitrust laws to provide some stablity in an economy but as we've seen with Microsoft they're not very effective.
Seeing as how we're on a thread dealing with France we can take their Revolution as an example of what happens when those at the top ignore the needs of the majority. I don't foresee beheadings in city squares becoming a regular event in North America, but when enough people get fed up with being screwed to the wall things will change. It's democracy after all, you've got to love it.
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It's completely ethical, a CEO doesn't enslave his workers, but what you are talking about would enslave the CEO. As long as an employer doesn't abuse his workers physically, pays them the stated amount on time, and doesn't discriminate against them based on anything but their working ability, he can and should be allowed to do whatever he wants with his business. Economically, he can't treat them too bad or no one will want to work for him, why do you think any employees get vacations and health insurance? To lure valuable workers away from competitors.
What you are saying violates the sacred Western principal of the inviolability of legal property and lawful profit, however I think that is what makes you like that course of action.
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Sacred Western principal, are you joking. For much of our history it's been take what you can when you can and screw the other guy if he's not swift enough. The behaviour of many CEOs in recent history has led me to be sceptical as to their ethical qualities. How many Enrons, Worldcoms, Johnson and Johnsons or here in Canada Nortel and Holiger Inc., do we need before we really question the role of big business. It may not have started out that way but Enron became nothing more than a massive Ponzi scam. Take money from new investors pay a little back to previous investors and pocket the remainder. It works great as long as you have new money coming in but falls like a house of cards when theres not.
Only A few years ago the head of the New York stock exchange made over $100 million a years. After all the auditing scandals his pay dropped to $3 million. I could go on and on but what's the point. I don't like this kind of behaviour because it's damaging to an economy over time. I believe in reasonable compensation for executives but not the astronomical payoffs that some have been taking. I makes people disillusioned and they stop trusting the market.
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That is white collar crime that police forces exist to take care of. People free load on social programs, but you'd just love to take gobs of money and put it into those programs anyway. You would say that a few bad apples don't make the entire program bad. I would certainly say the same thing about capitalism, a few scams don't invalidate the entire fundamental structure of the economy. And you obviously are being naive if you think getting rid of capitalism will get rid of the combination of greed and ingenuity that results in scams like Enron and such.
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Genghis
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 10:35 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Genghis
Maju, if you like protectionism and dislike global trade which exploits developing countries, then logically it would follow that you think it would be good if Spain cut off all trade with the rest of the world right? |
I'm not Spaniard, as you surey know. But guess I'd like that guarantees should be created to make sure that imported products at least approximate the local standards in ecology and social rights. If the product is cheap beause it's produced by poor people obligued to work 12 hrs./day 7 days/week without vacations, social insurance of any sort or even the right to strike, I want to know, so I can not buy that product. Furthermore, I want that my government, parlament or whatever take the appropiate measures to make sure that even if te product is doubly expensive it can only be comercialized if it fits in the ecological and social standards.
I am not against international trade but against the lack of regularization of that trade that favors exploiters of all sorts.
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I see your point, but I still don't care.
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DukeC
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 11:44 |
Originally posted by Genghis
That is white collar crime that police forces exist to take care of. People free load on social programs, but you'd just love to take gobs of money and put it into those programs anyway. You would say that a few bad apples don't make the entire program bad. I would certainly say the same thing about capitalism, a few scams don't invalidate the entire fundamental structure of the economy. And you obviously are being naive if you think getting rid of capitalism will get rid of the combination of greed and ingenuity that results in scams like Enron and such. |
And you're being naive if you believe that shareholders are going to sit back indefinately while they get repeatedly fleeced.
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Genghis
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 11:47 |
Originally posted by DukeC
Originally posted by Genghis
That is white collar crime that police forces exist to take care of. People free load on social programs, but you'd just love to take gobs of money and put it into those programs anyway. You would say that a few bad apples don't make the entire program bad. I would certainly say the same thing about capitalism, a few scams don't invalidate the entire fundamental structure of the economy. And you obviously are being naive if you think getting rid of capitalism will get rid of the combination of greed and ingenuity that results in scams like Enron and such. |
And you're being naive if you believe that shareholders are going to sit back indefinately while they get repeatedly fleeced.
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They don't sit back, they dump bad stocks and ruin the company that fleeced them, and then sue. Scams perpetrated by CEO's are still scams and should be treated the same way, through a court of law, not through idealistic social engineering programs.
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DukeC
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 11:51 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by DukeC
Originally posted by Genghis
That is white collar crime that police forces exist to take care of. People free load on social programs, but you'd just love to take gobs of money and put it into those programs anyway. You would say that a few bad apples don't make the entire program bad. I would certainly say the same thing about capitalism, a few scams don't invalidate the entire fundamental structure of the economy. And you obviously are being naive if you think getting rid of capitalism will get rid of the combination of greed and ingenuity that results in scams like Enron and such. |
And you're being naive if you believe that shareholders are going to sit back indefinately while they get repeatedly fleeced.
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They don't sit back, they dump bad stocks and ruin the company that fleeced them, and then sue. Scams perpetrated by CEO's are still scams and should be treated the same way, through a court of law, not through idealistic social engineering programs.
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Or they actually take back their rights and demand that the people working for them(CEOs,CFOs, etc...) really do work for them and stop lining their own pockets. No more $15 million dollar non-repayable loans and such.
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Genghis
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 11:54 |
Originally posted by DukeC
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by DukeC
Originally posted by Genghis
That is white collar crime that police forces exist to take care of. People free load on social programs, but you'd just love to take gobs of money and put it into those programs anyway. You would say that a few bad apples don't make the entire program bad. I would certainly say the same thing about capitalism, a few scams don't invalidate the entire fundamental structure of the economy. And you obviously are being naive if you think getting rid of capitalism will get rid of the combination of greed and ingenuity that results in scams like Enron and such. |
And you're being naive if you believe that shareholders are going to sit back indefinately while they get repeatedly fleeced.
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They don't sit back, they dump bad stocks and ruin the company that fleeced them, and then sue. Scams perpetrated by CEO's are still scams and should be treated the same way, through a court of law, not through idealistic social engineering programs.
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Or they actually take back their rights and demand that the people working for them(CEOs,CFOs, etc...) really do work for them and stop lining their own pockets. No more $15 million dollar non-repayable loans and such.
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If the shareholders don't like it, the Board of directors can stop it, don't blame "the establishment" for what the board of directors of Fortune 500 companies do or don't do.
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DukeC
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 12:08 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by DukeC
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by DukeC
Originally posted by Genghis
That is white collar crime that police forces exist to take care of. People free load on social programs, but you'd just love to take gobs of money and put it into those programs anyway. You would say that a few bad apples don't make the entire program bad. I would certainly say the same thing about capitalism, a few scams don't invalidate the entire fundamental structure of the economy. And you obviously are being naive if you think getting rid of capitalism will get rid of the combination of greed and ingenuity that results in scams like Enron and such. |
And you're being naive if you believe that shareholders are going to sit back indefinately while they get repeatedly fleeced.
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They don't sit back, they dump bad stocks and ruin the company that fleeced them, and then sue. Scams perpetrated by CEO's are still scams and should be treated the same way, through a court of law, not through idealistic social engineering programs.
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Or they actually take back their rights and demand that the people working for them(CEOs,CFOs, etc...) really do work for them and stop lining their own pockets. No more $15 million dollar non-repayable loans and such.
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If the shareholders don't like it, the Board of directors can stop it, don't blame "the establishment" for what the board of directors of Fortune 500 companies do or don't do.
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They are "the establishment".
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Quetzalcoatl
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 17:52 |
Commie strikers are the plague of France. These people tend to live in an alternate reality. They want to suck life out of the state. Parasite if you tell me. If it was up to me I'll turn France into a police state. let's just hope the Government (which is very cowardly) will not give way to those hippies demand.
France need the FN desperately.
Edited by Quetzalcoatl
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 17:57 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by prsn41ife
france seeems really unstable to me.
i think the chance of revolution is greater in france than in any other european nation.
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2 major riots in recent memory is a bad sign.
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What major riot, they burnt a kiosk and was surrounded by the police and some of them get the hell beaten out of them.
The police is getting better than ever, lets hope they employ more drastic tactics when the foreign element of France rebels again. Send them to french Guiana, all commies and bad immigrants.
Edited by Quetzalcoatl
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 19:54 |
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by prsn41ife
france seeems really unstable to me.
i think the chance of revolution is greater in france than in any other european nation.
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2 major riots in recent memory is a bad sign.
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What major riot, they burnt a kiosk and was surrounded by the police and some of them get the hell beaten out of them.
The police is getting better than ever, lets hope they employ more drastic tactics when the foreign element of France rebels again. Send them to french Guiana, all commies and bad immigrants.
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What about getting rid of fascists like you? It would be a much better job for humanity.
As for the riots, they can be considered rather reactive than being revolutionary but it's like winning a further position on the battlefield against neoliberalism. Just rejecting unfair contracting conditions within the so-called free market isn't enough; it's like attacking the means of production rather than changing the mode of production. I think only if the very existance of capitalism is questionned, a step will be taken in order to end the injustice. If we don't reject the paradigm, but only the unfair contracting conditions, we will continue to hear nonsense arguments like "What about the profit-making right of the entrepreneurs?!" etc.
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Genghis
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 20:18 |
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl
The police is getting better than ever, lets hope they employ more drastic tactics when the foreign element of France rebels again. Send them to french Guiana, all commies and bad immigrants. |
Cheers to that.
I can think of one French ruler who would know what should be done with these people
Edited by Genghis
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Maju
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 20:52 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by Maju
I'm not Spaniard, as you surey know. |
But you live in the Basque region of Spain, do you not?
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Don't be idiotic. I live in the Basque Country, which is not Spain nor France - but the Basque Country. That they have police detachments, governors, soldiers, etc doens't mean that they truly own the Country, just that they occupy it.
Some day they will be gone. We are stubborn.
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Don't call me an idiot, I never call you one. On the map, where you live would lie within the borders of Spain, would it not? |
You are calling me Spaniard. So I can call you names as well - can't I? The map is how you draw it. It depends in which map... Reality is what counts and it is much more complex and rich that what any map can show. The map is never the reality only a (subjective) description of it. The only map that accurately describes reality is the 1:1 map of reality itself. I can show you maps of all sorts... I've seen maps of the Basque Country that go from Tolouse to Burgos, from Bourdeaux to Zaragoza, from Andorra to Santander. It's all on the mind of the person drawing the map.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Maju
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 20:55 |
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl
France need the FN desperately. |
That would destroy France and Europe. Maybe the enemies of Europe need that but we don't. It would lead to a violent conflict with multiple incalculable risks. Conflict inside France and conflict everywhere else. It would be a total disaster. Luckily I believe it is not a realistic possibility.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Aydin
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 23:47 |
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je suis tres magnific
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Quetzalcoatl
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Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 23:59 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl
France need the FN desperately.
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That would destroy France and Europe. Maybe the enemies of Europe need that but we don't. It would lead to a violent conflict with multiple incalculable risks. Conflict inside France and conflict everywhere else. It would be a total disaster.
Luckily I believe it is not a realistic possibility.
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I'll rather go down in the flame of glory rather than succomb to commies and foreigners who only seek to destroy us.
LePen is right, Europe is what keep us down. That's why nowadays you are seeing a wave of french protectionism. The anglo-saxons have succeeded to destroy the EU, I'm disgusted by the behaviours of Europeans who allow this to happen. France must go on her own.
Call me fascist or racist, but we will not go down without a fight.
There message is crystal clear. The sons of Normans, Francilians, Aquitanian, Gascons, Burgundians and Breton will gather together and will strike the fanatical horde just like Martel did.
Edited by Quetzalcoatl
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Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 01:53 |
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl
Commie strikers are the plague of France. These people tend to live in an alternate reality. They want to suck life out of the state. Parasite if you tell me. If it was up to me I'll turn France into a police state. let's just hope the Government (which is very cowardly) will not give way to those hippies demand.
France need the FN desperately. |
Forgive my ignorance, but what is FN?
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