Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Best leader of a Muslim country at present?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 15>
Poll Question: Who do you think is the best leader of a Muslim country at present?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
1 [1.82%]
16 [29.09%]
7 [12.73%]
0 [0.00%]
3 [5.45%]
1 [1.82%]
22 [40.00%]
1 [1.82%]
0 [0.00%]
4 [7.27%]
You can not vote in this poll

Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Best leader of a Muslim country at present?
    Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 02:46
Hello Barish,

I wish to add a few comments to yours, if I may:

Originally posted by barish

- He said that our main identity is our religion.


When your name happens to be Mehmet or Ahmet, people will hardly identify you as anything other than 'Muslim'.  In any case, it's Erdogan's personal opinion, and we should respect it even if we disagree with it.

Originally posted by barish

- His party tried to criminalize adultery.


I don't know if you are aware of this, Barish, but Turkey is one of the countries wherein 'honor crimes' are highly reported.  I second Osmanli's opinion; fornication is a sin in all world religions, not just Islam. 

If I were a Turkish woman, and my husband cheated on me, I would like to be able to take him to court and have him charged for adultery.  If not, where is my right as a woman to safeguard my family and my dignity?

Whether you agree or not, women still don't have equal sexual liberties, in Turkey and elsewhere.  So if a woman commits adultery, and let's say, doesn't get charged for it, she will be divorced.  The husband can argue for the custody of the children on the pretext that his wife has engaged in illicit relationships; thus, does not qualify as a good role model for the kids.  Trust me, he'll win the case.  Not to mention the fact that society will shun her.  Her family will mistreat her, if not disown her altogether.  And her friends will not want to associate with her.  That's the social dilemma.

Again, allow me to go back to the point above about honor crimes:  Amnesty International has recorded many cases of honor crimes in Turkey.  Some of them had even occurred in Istanbul itself; an open, cosmopolitan city.  If you allow adultery in a country where people act out of anger and vengence this way, instead of allowing civil courts to handle the problem in hand, then you're asking for trouble.  Even in a conservative Gulf country like mine - UAE - honor crimes are almost non-existent.  It's a crime in the UAE, and those who commit it are sent to jail.  How I know about this?  I have worked for the Dubai Police.

Bottom line - there are more advantages to criminalizing adultery.

Originally posted by barish

- I think you are aware of the religious schools problem.


I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but it surprise me that while minorities in Turkey (Kurds, Armenians, Alevis, Jews, Christians ... etc) are rallying to have religious schools, some Turks are rallying against it.  Preserving culture and identity is nothing bad.  It does not have to necessarily undermine the secular principles of the country.

After all, what do you expect when an "Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu" heads the Organization of the Islamic Conference?

I hope I have been respectful in my comments.
Back to Top
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 02:48
Originally posted by Leonidas

I also think the UAE deserve a mention here, very well run country and investing back into non oil-industries, while they can.
Back to Top
Fizzil View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 03-Nov-2004
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 197 		  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 06:07
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Fizzil

Whoever voted bashar was obviously smoking something...

King Abdullah sounds good, as he made a whole load of improvements in saudia, in particular improving the citizens life.

But the best of all times is obviously Sheikh Zayed. He passed away though



Whoever voted for Abdullah was obviously very high!

I didn't vote, but hes pretty good, despite saudias eh human rights records.
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 06:32

Azimuth, it is not that simple.

Erdogan was elected by the %30 of the country. That's hardly the majority!

Yes true, but what get CHP  is less less than  others,  and army get zero vote. 

And he get the votes from all the right-wingers, not just Islamists.

yeah true, also remeaning 50% vote(votes except AKP and CHP)   is also mainly right-winger. They are more close to Erdoan than CHP and Militarist guys. 


Many free-market supporters, who voted for AKP just for economic reasons, would oppose anti-secularism.

There are not many free-market supporter, and they mainly voted CHP, not AKP.


And what if the majority of the country wants to be ruled by a non-democratic system? Can we call that democracy too?

If anyone(this one is you) want to rule by military, can we call his a democrat.

Democracy is complately accepted by turkish. what other choice we have? 

we are not shiah and Ottomans family will not rule turkey again. Democracy  is not dangered by Erdogan, but by Army.(as you supported and chered this coup idea.)

 

 

- He said that our main identity is our religion.

As  you   know this is also said by  Ataturk  I dont think he is anti-secular. He said our religion is our main common thing, and thing who hold us together. Any wrong?

what is common thing between a kurd(largest minority) and turk, except becoming a citizen of Turkey?

- His party tried to criminalize adultery.

Infact It was also a crime  before, but court canceled it, because It is only a crime for woman. So this crime is not complately new thing at Turkey  history. Ataturk didnt abolish it, how can you talk against Ataturk doings? It looks like you only support Ataturk view, when it is same with your ones.

barish wrote:
- I think you are aware of the religious schools problem.

 

Created by arm, not by religious or normal people. This schools were controled and ruled by Turkish goverment. So what is problem? This schools teach religion acording to Turkey wish. Are you against to teaching religion by Turkey hand? do you prefer people should learn their religion from tarikats?(I am sure you are absolutely  against this)

oh now I understand you, you are against to teaching islam. Sorry I am disagree about this.

 

For pool, We are realy a  bad situation, all of this leaders are bad.

 

 
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 07:57

Originally posted by barish


My grandmother also covers her head sometimes, but it has nothing to do with Islam.

Mine wouldn't have been seen dead in the street without a hat. And she was Anglican.

In fact up to about 25 years ago I don't think any Englishwoman would have gone into a church without her head covered. (Almost as bad as going to Ascot races without one. )

At a rough guess, when I was a child about 95% of the population, male and female, wouldn't be seen out without a hat.

Back on topic: I like Abdullah of Jordan who's not on the list.

 



Edited by gcle2003
Back to Top
Lmprs View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 30-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 08:28
Originally posted by Mortaza

There are not many free-market supporter, and they mainly voted CHP, not AKP.

Is this a joke? Capitalists voting for a left-wing party!   

Perhaps you didn't notice, many privatizations occured recently, most of which were rather suspicious if you ask me.

Originally posted by Mortaza

oh now I understand you, you are against to teaching islam. Sorry I am disagree about this.

Did I say that? No, of course not.

People are/should be free to choose their type of education, but remember they wouldn't be educated as regular students. So they are not allowed to enter universities as they wish.

Originally posted by Mira

I don't know if you are aware of this, Barish, but Turkey is one of the countries wherein 'honor crimes' are highly reported. I second Osmanli's opinion; fornication is a sin in all world religions, not just Islam.

No, it is against the "freedom of religion and conscience". I don't care if all religions consider adultery as a sin.

By the way, adultery is not a crime in Turkey, but it is in the civil code that "A woman, who was cheated by her husband, can divorce from him immediately and receive an alimony."

Back to Top
Lmprs View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 30-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 08:34
Originally posted by Mira

When your name happens to be Mehmet or Ahmet, people will hardly identify you as anything other than 'Muslim'. In any case, it's Erdogan's personal opinion, and we should respect it even if we disagree with it.

No, I don't have an Arabic name. It is irrevelant by the way.

Erdogan's timing couldn't be worse. I don't think he meant that, but his words can be understood as this:

"A non-muslim citizen of Turkey is a threat to our identity."

Edited by barish
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 08:46

Is this a joke? Capitalists voting for a left-wing party! 

are you joking?  CHP  is  a  left-wing party. Oh you should spread this news to Turkey. So we can learn, now we have a left-wing  party. CHP.

Even AKP is more left-wing party than CHP.

Sorry but If you give the two option,CHP and AKP(this was what happened at Turkey), they  would choose CHP, remember most place which rich people lived, choose CHP. like  ili.

 

Did I say that? No, of course not.

No, Infact you didnt, but what you said is only goes this way.

People are/should be free to choose their type of education, but remember they wouldn't be educated as regular students.

why not, do you prefer Tarikats give this regular education? would it be better? This high schools are goverment ruled, so there are not any reason to afraid them. If they waste their time to religion class, instead of other classes, that is their choice, and result will effect their knowledge.

Remember we were making an exam for entering univercities, If their knowledge is not enough (because of religious education),  they would fail this exams, If their knowledge is  enough,I dont see any bad part of religious education.

 

So they are not allowed to enter universities as they wish.

Because they want to learn their religion much, so they should not go universities, what benefit do you wait something like this? how will  they find good  jobs without going universities?

 

what type of freedom is this,

yeah you  can go religious  school, you are free for this, but  you should also suffer at  all of  your life.

 

 

 

 

 

 
Back to Top
Iranian41ife View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 11:44

Originally posted by barish

Originally posted by prsn41ife

60% of turks wear a head covering and most dont want a secular state, that is why the muslim parties keep winning. and the last military coup was in 1996. but i hope that turkey stays secular although i dont believe its a democracy by western standards.


60% of the Turks wear head covering? I hope you excluded males.

That number is a joke. Head covering does not always mean head covering in an Islamic way.

My grandmother also covers her head sometimes, but it has nothing to do with Islam.


i meant 60% of women cover their hair (in the islamic way).
Back to Top
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 11:48
Originally posted by barish

No, it is against the "freedom of religion and conscience". I don't care if all religions consider adultery as a sin.

By the way, adultery is not a crime in Turkey, but it is in the civil code that "A woman, who was cheated by her husband, can divorce from him immediately and receive an alimony."


Thank you, Barish, for clarifying this point.  The article you mentioned is pretty much an Islamic right.  There are many Shariah laws incorporated in the Turkish civil code that many do not recognize at first instance; such that a woman (divorcee) should wait a period of three months before consummating another marriage.

You may argue that it is against freedom of religion, and that argument would be logically acceptable, but to say it's against freedom of conscience may be a bit of an exaggeration.  It is an individual duty, as much as it is the duty of the society, to protect itself and its members from corruption.  As I said earlier, there are many advantages to criminalizing adultery.  Imagine the sudden outbreak of an "abandoned children" phenomenon, or the the rapid increase of the number of single women, who have children to support.  Think of the children who will be raised in a dysfunctional family - if there was a family to begin with.

That's the point of having a system of any kind - to regulate society.  Even if you disagree with the idea, at least be true to yourself and admit that it can have a huge negative impact on any society; even in the West.  Think of the welfare money that is spent on single mothers and abandoned children.  Adultery is bad for the society and the economy.

As for the name - Maybe you don't have a Muslim name, but you know that many Turks do.

Thank you for your time.
Back to Top
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 11:55
Originally posted by barish

Erdogan's timing couldn't be worse. I don't think he meant that, but his words can be understood as this:

"A non-muslim citizen of Turkey is a threat to our identity."


Hello again, Barish,

I think it is wrong to assume that he must have meant that by what he had said.  Whether he said that or not, if you go through European papers discussing Turkey's joining the EU, most of the arguments against the membership has to do with Turkey's "Muslim" identity.  We all know Turkey is a secular country today, but let's face it - the West thinks otherwise.

If you read Bernard Lewis's, "The Emergence of Modern Turkey," he argues that a non-Muslim Turkish citizen will always be referred to as a Turkish citizen, but not a Turk.  So the distinction has nothing to do with what Erdogan had said, or could have meant - it is just how the West perceives it to be.  The perception can not be easily changed, it seems.
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 13:52
Originally posted by Mira


If you read Bernard Lewis's, "The Emergence of Modern Turkey," he argues that a non-Muslim Turkish citizen will always be referred to as a Turkish citizen, but not a Turk.  So the distinction has nothing to do with what Erdogan had said, or could have meant - it is just how the West perceives it to be.  The perception can not be easily changed, it seems.


I don't think so. Turk is an ethnic term, therfore I always find odd when I read that in ethnic conflicts in the area, religion and etnicity seem to mix so easily. I have known atheist Turks, and I never ever thought they were less Turks for that reason.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740 		  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 15:16

"I don't care if all religions consider adultery as a sin. "

I not really bothered if you care or not either. The point i was making is that Erdogan has not mentioned any plans for any legislations for fornication (even though Islam forbids it). However he has made it clear about the illegal status of the adulteror, which not only is a religious bond but also a LEGAL contract.

Thus my point being that he has not made Turkey less secular then what Mustafa Kemal, your role model did.

Your grandmother wears the hijab sometimes, and you say that it has nothing to do with Islam . How do you think it entered into the Turkish secular culture, thanks to the Gokturks???
Back to Top
Lmprs View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 30-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 17:14
Originally posted by Mortaza

are you joking? CHP is a left-wing party. Oh you should spread this news to Turkey. So we can learn, now we have a left-wing party. CHP. Even AKP is more left-wing party than CHP.

I can't believe this! How old are you? Five?

"oulcu ve katlmc demokrasi deerlerine ve insan haklarna dayanan, gcn halktan alan, ada demokratik sol bir siyasal kurulutur."

From The Constitution of CHP

By the way, I loved your logic: rich people are right-wingers, poor people are leftist!


Edited by barish
Back to Top
Attila2 View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 03-Oct-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 154 		  Quote Attila2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 17:25
Please delete this topic,Turkey is NOT AN ISLAMIC country!
Back to Top
Lmprs View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 30-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 17:25
Originally posted by Mira

If you read Bernard Lewis's, "The Emergence of Modern Turkey," he argues that a non-Muslim Turkish citizen will always be referred to as a Turkish citizen, but not a Turk. So the distinction has nothing to do with what Erdogan had said, or could have meant - it is just how the West perceives it to be. The perception can not be easily changed, it seems.

Turk means nothing but "a citizen of Turkey" in official issues in my country. I hope you understand it now.

Edited by barish
Back to Top
Attila2 View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 03-Oct-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 154 		  Quote Attila2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 17:35

well,if someone doesnt want to call himself a Turk,then let it be...

Some people cannot be "Turk",they are only "Turkish".And there isnt any problem for me unless they pose a danger.And it is also better for the ethnicity of the people of Turkey;it prevents "uniformization",if u got what I mean  
Back to Top
Lmprs View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 30-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 17:38
Originally posted by Attila2

Please delete this topic,Turkey is NOT AN ISLAMIC country!

Well, I might agree with you for some reasons, and not for some other.

If we call a secular, Western country "Christian", then we can call Turkey "Muslim".
Back to Top
Lmprs View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 30-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 17:41
Originally posted by Attila2

And it is also better for the ethnicity of the people of Turkey;it prevents "uniformization",if u got what I mean

You are racist too, I'm dissapointed.
Back to Top
Attila2 View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 03-Oct-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 154 		  Quote Attila2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 17:41
anyway,RTE sucks I think
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 15>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.