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The American Civil war

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AlbinoAlien View Drop Down
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  Quote AlbinoAlien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The American Civil war
    Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 11:40
Originally posted by Tobodai

I as an American, who greatly wishes the south had suceeded (because we in the north would be so much better off without our gangrenous limb) I still see it as a primarily economic confronation between industrialism and agriculture.

i thave never thought of it that way! maybe if we had lost the war, the US wouldnt have to deal with poor southern economy and rascist populace. although, we would have lost many resources to the south, like of course cotton. then again, we would have controlled all of the west anyway, and plenty of crops can be grown there.

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 14:45

Originally posted by AlbinoAlien

i thave never thought of it that way! maybe if we had lost the war, the US wouldnt have to deal with poor southern economy and rascist populace. although, we would have lost many resources to the south, like of course cotton. then again, we would have controlled all of the west anyway, and plenty of crops can be grown there.

Well maybe the south would have been an undeveloped agricultural economy, but Texas, Oklahoma and maybe New Mexico would have moved the economy far in advance with their oil crude reserves and unmathing Texas' natural gas reserve

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source

  Now would the North buy Alaska if they lost the war? I dont think so. the US bought Alaska from Russia in 1867 which is 2 years after the war ended. If the North lost, it would have been busy recovering and guarding their now southern long borders with the south. Other problems would be:

1- increasing British military presence in the south (didn't they help the South indirectly?)

2- increasing tention between the Union and the Confederacy as more slaves are escaping from South to North after the South won the war.

3- A race to absorb other forming states in the Midwest and on the Rocky moutains (possible military conflict).

  If I can think of anything that helped the North in winnig is the draft system they had and allowing for many immigrants to settle in the States (Mainly Irish due to the famine) who provided great human resource for the Northern armies.

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 21:44
I fully agree with you, ok Ge: there were too may resources in play (even if they didn't even know then).

Also, some people tend to think that the remaining USA would have sticked together but this a problematic question, as the CSA would have made it a lot slimmer and less geographically coherent. My bet is that California would have soon secceeded too and maybe even the Midwest and the NW too. Your point about Alaska is very good too. Hawaii could still have fallen under the influence of an independent California Republic or Pacific states league but nothing more.

My hypothetical scenario for a stalemate with the CSA implies that California and Texas both secceed. California first, dragging maybe Oregon with it (a new conflict about Nevada and Washington territory). The huge distances existing then would have made impossible for the USA to keep the Pacific integrated by force (there was no Panama Canal yet and I would expect Mexico and the CSA supporting California, maybe Britain too).

Later, after the discovery of oil, it's likely that Texas and the neighbouring  territories would  secceed from the more backward "deep south".

The USA would become (in the best case) limited to a stretch between the East Coast and the Rocky Mountains, between Canada and the CSA. Still a powerful state but without the projection that the Caribbean and Pacific coasts give it and without many of the natural resources it has now.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 13:19

Your also assuming a worst case scenario.  One thing regarded likely by many Civil War scholars was that after sucession it would be only a matter of time before peaceful re-integration.  Re integration without all that death and destruction would probably be quite a bit better than what happened.  I also dont see west coast sessesion as likely either as all the midwest and western states were very heavily populated by pro union northerners and pro union germna immigrants.  Theres a population dynamic at play  here too.

Had the CSA actually suceeded I think (given the diplomatic relations at the time) it would have become friends with a freindly France and Britain for protection.  This would lead to WW1 being fought in North America as well as Europe and thus the massive industrial resources and navy of the north-combined with Germany, would ahve made victory for the Central POwers.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 17:41
A secession of Texas seams quite plausible. Santiago Vidaurri, a separatist and somewhat eccentric governor in Northern Mexico used the chaos created by the French intervention trying to create a 'Sierra Madre Republic' composed of Coahuila-Nuevo Len, Tamaulipas and Texas.
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 11:55
[QUOTE=Maju] I fully agree with you, ok Ge: there were too may resources in play (even if they didn't even know then).

Also, some people tend to think that the remaining USA would have
sticked together but this a problematic question, as the CSA would have
made it a lot slimmer and less geographically coherent. My bet is that
California would have soon secceeded too and maybe even the Midwest and
the NW too. Your point about Alaska is very good too. Hawaii could
still have fallen under the influence of an independent California
Republic or Pacific states league but nothing more.

My hypothetical scenario for a stalemate with the CSA implies that
California and Texas both secceed. California first, dragging maybe
Oregon with it (a new conflict about Nevada and Washington territory).
The huge distances existing then would have made impossible for the USA
to keep the Pacific integrated by force (there was no Panama Canal yet
and I would expect Mexico and the CSA supporting California, maybe
Britain too).

Noty really Maju, the southern states pushed greatly to declare war on Mexico to obtain more states and expand the slavery.

Plus, during the Maximilian empire, the CSA was more oriented towards the frnech puppet regime.
The CSA was a natural enemy of Mexico.
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 11:58
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

A secession of Texas seams quite plausible. Santiago Vidaurri, a separatist and somewhat eccentric governor in Northern Mexico used the chaos created by the French intervention trying to create a 'Sierra Madre Republic' composed of Coahuila-Nuevo Len, Tamaulipas and Texas.



Hi Mixcoatl:
Vidaurri offered to annhex Nuevo Leon and Coahuila to the CSA and was one of the first governors to switch sides when Maximilian was impossed as Emperor.

He was more a Cacique interested on the large business he was doing at that time with the CSA cotton than secceding from Mexico.
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  Quote bradcorazon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 02:19

You bring up a lot of very good questions.  The Civil War was in reality, a continuation of the American Revolution.  The origional Founding Fathers had never settled the slavery issue, due to the fact that it was so highly sensetive.  They knew that the timing was not ready from a political perspective.  This however, is not an excuse, but it is a fact. 

As time went by, many factors helped to steer the country towards war.  The Missouri Compromise of 1820, the Kansas/Nebraska Act, and even the Mexican/American War all brought the slavery issue to the forefront.  Abraham Lincoln had resigned from politics, but as he witnessed what was happening, he realized that slavery has an evil that needed to be fought. 

Anyone who says that slavery was not an issue in the American Civil War is wrong.  Of course other political factors played a role, but slavery what what loaded the gun. 

As far as your question about ancestors who fought...I actually have family that fought on both sides.  My Great-great grandfather (Elijah Widener) fought for the 37th Virginia under Stonewall Jackson.  He also had 4 brothers who fought along side him.  They were present at the First Battle of Manassas (Bull Run), Fredricksburg, Chancellorsville and Gettysburg.  Elijah lost his brother Samuel during the war from wounds he recieved.  Elijah and his 2 brothers were even taken prisoner and were sent to Ft. Delaware, where they were guarded bt some of the first black soldiers of the war. 

On my father's side, I have family that fought in the 20th Maine under George Meade.  They were also present at Gettysburg and Fredricksburg. 

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 08:22

bradcorazon:

On my mother's side, I had a great, great, great grandfather, and also his brother, who were both also at Fredericksburg and Gettysburg.  Same regiment: First Volunteer Pennsylvania Cavalry.

It was kind of wierd seeing both their names on the Pennsylvania Monument at G-burg.

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