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kitans and the west
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Dayanhan View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


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Posts: 61 		  Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: kitans and the west
    Posted: 07-May-2006 at 14:40

Originally posted by tadamson

"Mancu Tartars" sounds like a term that a 19th C historian would use.

Sounds right.

And they have notthing to do with the Ktans except that their ancestors (Jurchens) drove the Kitans out from the northern China.
Veritas lux mea est!
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BigL View Drop Down
General
General


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Posts: 817 		  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 23:48
Werent Tartars the manchurian/Juzhen  tribe who genghis fought?
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Dayanhan View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


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Posts: 61 		  Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2006 at 18:10

Originally posted by BigL

Werent Tartars the manchurian/Juzhen  tribe who genghis fought?

Right. Ghenghiz fought against the last King of Golden state and his descendants conquered that state.
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tadamson View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


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Posts: 451 		  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 20:48
Originally posted by Dayanhan

Originally posted by BigL

Werent Tartars the manchurian/Juzhen  tribe who genghis fought?

Right. Ghenghiz fought against the last King of Golden state and his descendants conquered that state.



No.     Temuljin allied with Keraits and Jin Empire to destroy the Tatar tribe (who had been the Jin Empire's agents up till then), this was a key point in his march to power.

Tartar is a later and rather derogitory term for steppe nomads in gerneral, eventually groups of nomads took to calling themsselves Tartars.
rgds.

      Tom..
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Dayanhan View Drop Down
Knight
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Posts: 61 		  Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 17:06
Originally posted by tadamson

Originally posted by Dayanhan

Originally posted by BigL

Werent Tartars the manchurian/Juzhen  tribe who genghis fought?

Right. Ghenghiz fought against the last King of Golden state and his descendants conquered that state.

No.     Temuljin allied with Keraits and Jin Empire to destroy the Tatar tribe (who had been the Jin Empire's agents up till then), this was a key point in his march to power.

Tartar is a later and rather derogitory term for steppe nomads in gerneral, eventually groups of nomads took to calling themsselves Tartars.

You are correct in Pre-Qing context, though Nuzhen-Manchu's were later called "Tartars" as well.

During Ghenghiz' time, the Tartars were one of the Mongol tribes who submitted to the Jurchen Golden State, therby receiving the title of "Ong (Wang: King). In fact, these Tartars killed Ghenghizkhaan's father (Yesunge) on his way back from his in-law (Dei Sechen) when Yesunge dropped by the Tartar festival, after he left Temujin at Dei Sechen's home for future marriage with his daughter.  Thus, Ghenghizkhaan decided to destroy the Tartars and the Golden State, to take revenge upon them.

Regarding the Kereitos, Ghenghiz was an ally of the Khan (Ong Khaan: Wang Han) of Kereitos initially, but destroyed the tribe and Jamukha (son of Ong Khaan) before he conquered the Golden State. But, sorry for misunderstanding of your question!
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tadamson View Drop Down
Baron
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Posts: 451 		  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2006 at 10:06
It's even more complicated...

Tatars  were the group that Temuljin destroyed.
Tartar  was the (normaly derogitory) term used in China, Persia, and later in Europe to refer to steppe nomads in general (like the Greeks called all non-Greeks 'barbarians'). Peversely several nomad groupd then started referring to themselves as 'Tartars'.   This has vexed historians for a long time.
rgds.

      Tom..
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