In the Court of King Kang(New Court Music needed)

This will be a great opportunity to share and learn about great music that is ignored and overshadowed by the multitude of sugarcoated music out there.  I would like to extend a thank-you to King Kang of Mu for getting the ball rolling.

Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 24-May-2008 at 23:23

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor This will be a great opportunity to share and learn about great music that is ignored and overshadowed by the multitude of sugarcoated music out there.  I would like to extend a thank-you to King Kang of Mu for getting the ball rolling.   As King Kang mentioned, it is good to start out with the "Old Masters" to know where this new music came from.  This is a history forum, afterall, so why not begin with a family tree overview?  I will start the tree in list form.  Please feel free to correct, subtract, or add if you have a different opinion.  I will list categories and band names followed by their seminal album's title.

Originally posted by Frederick Roger King Crimson - In the Court of the Crimson King I would't call this proto-prog - after all it is THE official first progressive rock album

I think the matter of the Beatles, especially Sgt. Pepper issue is pretty much settled(to me at least).  Give credit to where the credit is due but also recognize what their limitations were and how the early Prog Masters have took off from those limitations.  It is amazing though that how their music has evolved so much from their 'Love Me Do' days to 'Sgt Pepper' right in front of millions of people.  Even if they are not necessarily Prog Rock per se, but their evolution was definitely Progressive in more general sense of the word.

I agree with you on Hendrix and ELP matter also.  I would have like to see them playing together for an album or two, maybe a small tour, maybe even just one night for some lucky Hippie bastards.  But I am quite happy with how EPL ended up the way they did.  Agree on the keyboard  power trio part, agree on Carl Palmer,  check, check.

Matter of Blues in Prog Rock needs more discussion perhaps.    Obviously there is no Prog Manual that says how many 1/9 notes you have to play to be called as a Prog Rock.  No prerequisites on atonality, chromatic sequences or polyrythmics.  But those are qualities that often associated Prog Rock especially in heavier ones.   Those are even used as the measures of their virtuosity and sophistication.   These qualities also often set them apart from Blues based Rock music.   As great as Cream and Led Zeppelin were, at what point  they could be included as the uncles of Prog Metal and Stevie Ray Vaughn is not?  I'm not making a point for one way or another.  It is a genuine question from me.  In other words, at what point it's too Bluesy to be Prog?

I am glad that Byzantine has brought up Ginger Baker.   As much as  virtuosic and sophisticated Clapton can be, I don't think Clapton alone can put Cream into this bloodline. Usage of double bass drums was the beginning, studying African drumming another which brought different ways to chop down the blues beats and wonderful textures that were innovative not just in Blues Rock but 'progressive' for all at the time.  I like to hear more on this Blues-Prog Rock issue, if you guys have more to add on.


Originally posted by Frederick Roger


  

 

Damn, you guys really pound those keys when I'm not around...  Gee, so much to discuss, where to start?

Another great thread guys. Yes it's been a nice long memorial weekend marked by seldom visitations. I'll revisit with a few observations as well on the history or prog and the neo-movement in a couple of days.

I was born in Seoul but I've been in Michigan since I was 15, went to high school and college here too.  Tigers, lets not go there yet, it's still early.  But Wings!  Hell ya!  Pistons, I will give Chauncy one more game but Stucky should start from now on.   I have a feeling Seko's got some Michigan connection too.  A big Wings fan!   Then again it's not surprising considering the rich musical heritage of Michigan, Motown and Stevie Wonder, to Detroit and Ann Arbor Jazz Fests, to MC 5, Madonna to Techno to even Kid Rock, Eminem White Stripes, the list goes on and on and on......  

My first King Crimson show, Kalamazoo State Theater.  The California Guitar Trio opened for them.  I didn't have the ticket.  My friend and his older brother did.  I tagged along anyway without the ticket.  I thought I could get one there easily.  But not only it's sold out, also no scalpers!  I was about to give up.  I told my friends to go in but they wouldn't without me.  So we walked around the building one more time looking for scalpers.  Guess who I see walking towards the theater back door, Bill Bruford!  I remember shaking his hand, but I have no idea what I said to him or what he said back to me.  Out of body experience.  After that we walked back to the front of the theater.  I can hear CGT's opening act has started already which I didn't know they were the opening act until I could hear them from outside.   No one else was around except us.  They were all inside.  And then this big doorman guy walked up to us.  And goes, 'Hey, you guys still looking for tickets?'  I gave him $7 more than the regular price and it got us the 10th row seats!  Only missed first two song of CGT!  More out of body experience.  Yes that was a good day. 
Second show, Detroit State Theater. I shaved my head, grew mustasch and were suspenders in honor of Tony Levin.  I looked more like Korean-Mexican.  Didn't get shake his hands though.



Again, thanks for Blue Cheer.  'Doctor Please' is already in my YouTube Favorite list.

I didn't mean that you meant King Crimson is psychedelic by that comment.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  I was just commenting on Fripp himself might cringe on the word, 'psychedelic'.  But then again, who am I to speak for Frippmeister?   Interesting that you brought up Hyde Park though.   'Get Thy Bearing' and 'Travel Weary Capricorn' from that era do sound like sophisticated The Grateful Dead, don't they?  Of course there are Fripp's guitar tantrum moments that are uniquely King Crimson.   And there are later Crimsongs that are bluesy enough.  'Ladies of the Road' and 'Easy Money' come to mind.  Not too many of those though. 

Now I see where you are coming from as far as 'In the Court of the Crimson King' as Proto-Prog.   Fripp is definitely less dominant figure in that album(Fripp was more of the guitarist than the leader)  compare to later albums which he reigns as the leader of the band, the presence only equaled by Zappa over his bands.  If there are more songs like 'Get Thy Bearing' and 'Travel Weary Capricorn' in that album, I would agree with you.   Even 'Moon Child' I can see it as Acid Rock.  I guess what I'm saying is what the listener hears as psychedelic is not necessarily from the musician's point of view.    however if the musician created a psychedelic music from his point view almost always the Hippies will pick that up. In overall, I think it's a bonafide Prog whether it's THE first Prog or not.  But I was wrong once before.

As far as Art Rock thing, I tend to agree with Frederick on this one, too.  I feel almost bad now.  I stated my reasons already so I will go to Wiki as lazy person would.

(fromWiki)-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Relationship with progressive rock

The concept of "art rock" has also sometimes been used to refer to the "progressive rock" bands which became popular in the 1970s. The All Music Guide states that "Progressive rock and art rock are two almost interchangeable terms describing a mostly British attempt to elevate rock music to new levels of artistic credibility."^[1] Progressive rock eventually stuck as a label for a specific genre of rock music, while "art rock" was used to refer to a wider, more subjective and harder-to-categorize collection of bands.

Princeton University's Wordnet dictionary states that "progressive rock, art rock" are "a style of rock music that emerged in the 1970s; associated with attempts to combine rock with jazz and other forms; intended for listening and not dancing".^[3] As well, the book American Popular Music by Larry Starr & Christopher Waterman defines art rock as a "Form of rock music that blended elements of rock and European classical music. It included bands such as King Crimson; Emerson, Lake & Palmer; and Pink Floyd."^[4] Bruce Eder's essay The Early History of Art-Rock/Prog Rock states that "'progressive rock,' also sometimes known as 'art rock,' or 'classical rock'" is music in which the "bands [are] playing suites, not songs; borrowing riffs from Bach, Beethoven, and Wagner instead of Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley; and using language closer to William Blake or T. S. Eliot than to Carl Perkins or Willie Dixon."^[5]

The Guide to the Progressive Rock Genres lists "art rock" under the subheading "Forms Tangential and Peripheral to Symphonic Rock/Progressive Rock." The guide states that "art rock" is "another term often used interchangeably with progressive rock, [which] implies rock with an exploratory tendency." The guide also gives another definition of "art rock", which "describes music of a more mainstream compositional nature, tending to experimentation within this framework", such as "Early Roxy Music, David Bowie, Brian Eno's 70s rock music, and Be Bop Deluxe.^[6]

Connolly and Company argue that the "creation of the “art rock” sub-genre, whose members were identified by music played with artistic ideals (e.g., Roxy Music, 10cc)...was in many ways a response to prog rock’s long-winded concepts, an attempt to condense progressive rock’s ideas into shorter, self-standing songs." He argues that "Art rock’s lifespan was brief, generally contained to the ‘70s."^[7]

Art rock may be considered "arty" through imitation of classical "art" music or literature, or simply through eclecticism. Examples of the former include Queen, The Moody Blues, The Who,^[8][9] Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, The Nice, Emerson, Lake & Palmer, David Bowie, The Velvet Underground, Kate Bush, The Beatles Sgt. Peppers and Love Forever Changes) and examples of the latter include Peter Hammill, Roxy Music, Genesis and Yes.

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So there are opinions that agreeing with yours.  Based on Wiki, yours is more supported than mine actually.  Perhaps my view is only supported by this definition.

The Guide to the Progressive Rock Genres lists "art rock" under the subheading "Forms Tangential and Peripheral to Symphonic Rock/Progressive Rock." The guide states that "art rock" is "another term often used interchangeably with progressive rock, [which] implies rock with an exploratory tendency."

Instead of a subheading of  tangential and peripheral to Prog,  Prog itself, plus tangenial and peripheral to Prog.   'an exploratory tendency' can be so many things.  Thus broaden the boundary of Art Rock wider than Prog or Psychedelic.   That would be my view which doesn't follow the quote I picked to support.

Moody Blues, I saw them as Symphonic Prog.  But not in the same way Yes is.  I can see why some sees Yes as Symphonic .  Heck, Wakeman's synthesizers and Howe's guitars can probably create more sounds than 100 piece orchestra!  But for me Yes is just Prog as much as King Crimson is.  Alan Parson's? Maybe Electro Prog?  Is there such thing?   If there is , I would put it there along with Brian Eno and Kraftwerk.    I don't know,  let me think about little more.



Good to see you Seko.  Excited to hear from you more soon.


    

Edited by King Kang of Mu - 26-May-2008 at 07:44

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Nice story about your experience at the King Crimson concert!  I can't say that I have met any of the prog masters.  However, when I went to see Dream Theater at the Congress Theater in 2006 for the Octavarium tour, my wife and I got there 2 hours early to wait in line for a general admission place.  While we were waiting, Mike Portnoy (drummer of DT) walked out of the bus, stopped and waved to the crowd, and into the Theater.  That was pretty cool.

Perhaps the best part of the story is that your wife wants to go to Dream Theater concert.  I don't wanna sound like a sexist or nothing but I must admit that there aren't too many female Prog fans.  I met two that knew who King Crimson was before I told them about it.  I ended up dating both, not at the same time of course.   You know, you gotta hold on them whenever you come across.   Intelligent beauty who loves music, so rare.  Oh, what a lucky man he was.

Byzantine Emperor, you are indeed lucky. Krista (my girlfriend) is not very fond of most of my favorite bands, Iced Earth, Metallica, Megadeth, Hammerfall, et al. But, at least she like Pink Floyd and Zeplin. I am trying to get her to to like Dream Theater though, not taking as of yet.

Personally I think Dream Theater's best album is Images and Words. They put out some amazing stuff but I never get tired of Images and Words. What do you guys think? What is DT's best album?

Ok, where was I?  Prog Rock and Women, Byzantine, Lucky Man, Art Rock, Michigan......  

Oh, The 13th Floor Elevators!  That's where I'll start.    Again, bluesy, psychedelic, distortion, power rock.    Quite similar to Blue Cheer actually.  Love that Water Jug thing.   Makes cool rolling bass sound.  I would compare to The Who, The Rolling Stones, The Kinks and Steppenwolf.   It's funny actually I just looked up Steppenwolf in Wiki, this is the first sentence.

     Steppenwolf is a rock band that helped establish heavy metal music in the late 1960s along with bands like Blue Cheer and Iron Butterfly.  

Hmm, all along Blue Cheer reference was hiding from me.  The 13th Floor Elevators might as well be on the same list.  Wiki does say one of the Psychedelic but also Proto-Punk or Garage Rock.  In that sense I would relate to The Kinks most.  But that Electric Jug thing , that does make huge difference, doesn't it?   I mean if I didn't see the footage and just listened to it , I would think it's electric bass.  In that case it's pretty far out bass line.   Psychedelic for sure, Proto-Prog, jugged in.

This brings up another interesting aspect of early Psychedelic and Proto Prog.   I don't know if it's just me, but Ive noticed that many early Psychedelic does come from the Summer of Love, San Fransisco scene, headed by The Grateful Dead and The Jefferson Airplane, Jimi, Janis, The Doors, Iron butterfly and I think Blue Cheer and The 13th Floor Elevators fit right in there.  And I think Blues is more dominant influence in this scene 

But also right around the same time, there was another group of bands across the Atlantic Ocean that were more Proto Symphonic Prog.  I think early Pink Floyd was an exception.  But The Moody Blues, Procol Harum, The Nice fit into that.   They have more  Classical, Symphonic, even Jazzy feel to them than the counter parts in San Fransisco.  I think the narrowest definition of the word Prog Rock comes from this tradition than the ones from San Fransisco.   I know, that could be controversial, that's why I said 'narrowest'.  This is one of the reason I see Art Rock as something that encompasses both traditions.

Anyway, The Moody Blues and The Nice are already mentioned, if anybody not familiar Procol Harum, they did have a quite popular song, 'A Whiter Shade of Pale'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbWULu5_nXI&feature=related

Love that song.  Annie Lennox does pretty good version of it too. 

Perhaps little more Symphonic Proggy from same album from1967, 'Conquistador'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P2NJFmhvJ4&feature=related




Another band this time from San Fransisco scene, It's a Beautiful Day.   Yes that's the name of the band, the whole sentence, 'It's a Beautiful Day'.  Their most popular song' White Bird', still gets some radio plays in Classic Rock stations in U.S.   Their first album wasn't until 1969 but they did come out of the Summer of Love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0J77CRMeTA&feature=related

Another one, 'Bombay Calling'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAJoAO88Bdk&feature=related

Doesn't  the intro sound lot like Deep Purple's 'Child in Time'?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KnTAdfdcWI&feature=related

Some say this Jazz musician, Vince Wallace  wrote 'Bombay Calling' back in 1962.

Either way they are all good examples of Proto-Prog?  I brought up 'It's a Beautiful Day' as something Psychedelic and Prog like Pink Floyd  though they sound very different from each other.  It's a Beautiful Day had more American Folky, almost Blue Grassy feel to it.

Let's see, tomorrow, I'll check out some 'Spirit' by Spirit, hope it's distilled.





Edited by King Kang of Mu - 20-Jun-2008 at 02:27