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Sun Tzu
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Topic: Jerusalem and what should be done with it? Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 17:22 |
Jerusalem is the navel of the world, holy site for the three major religions, and a warzone. Since every one of these religions (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) hold significant claim to the city what should be done? what could be done to satisfy all factions and create a sense of coexistance?
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Sun Tzu
All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu
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Cryptic
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Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 19:31 |
Status quo seems to be a good idea. Any changes, even the ones that can be agreed on, may lead to unforeseen concequences.
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Balaam
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Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 01:17 |
total destruction of the city could work...
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 23:17 |
Saladin's system worked well until 1948.
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konstantinius
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Posted: 19-Apr-2008 at 23:40 |
The area needs to be under the auspices of a multi-ethnic empire. Roman, Persian, Ottoman, British, anything would work but this.
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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
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Maharbbal
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Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 05:07 |
I'm sorry but the three religion do not hold a similar claim to the city.
For Islam it is only (at best) the third one. So Muslims do not have the same claim. Then for many Jews, despite the presence of the Temple, only God is supposed to restore Israel, so once more religiously Judaism is not supposed to hold Jerusalem. Only the Christians have a clear claim for the temporal government of the city. It is their #1 city. As such the pope should govern the city.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 07:56 |
The pope has never governed Jerusalem, except for the period where he tried to take it by force. The eastern churches - Greek, Syrian, Ethopian, Egyptian, Armenian etc, have collectively governed the Holy Churches since at least Saladin (possibly always or post Roman?)
The problem is they are far to busy fighting each other to agree upon a gate keeper for the Holy Sepulchre let alone the ruler of the whole region.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 11:42 |
Are there any Jebusites around it could be given back to?
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pekau
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Posted: 21-Apr-2008 at 21:19 |
Serious international military supervision, and wait until Palestine and Israel recover their diplomatic, social and economic stability. Much of the violent religious movement is not caused by religious cause, but by the discontentment and frustations of people.
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Knights
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Posted: 22-Apr-2008 at 03:21 |
Maharbbal: What makes you say that if Christians have the biggest claim to the city, then it is the Pope who automatically should assume control? Not all Christians are Catholics.
And Gcle: I was thinking the exact same thing - they have the right to it above anyone else! The Jebusites built the city, only to have it taken off them by David. Any Jebusites around?
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 22-Apr-2008 at 04:00 |
Originally posted by Maharbbal
I'm sorry but the three religion do not hold a similar claim to the city.
For Islam it is only (at best) the third one. So Muslims do not have the same claim. Then for many Jews, despite the presence of the Temple, only God is supposed to restore Israel, so once more religiously Judaism is not supposed to hold Jerusalem. Only the Christians have a clear claim for the temporal government of the city. It is their #1 city. As such the pope should govern the city.
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Hm. We could launch into a discussion of why the popes claims to universal juridical authority are uncanonical and refuted by the early church, but we shall refrain, at this point. That said, we must note that the canonical patriarch of Jerusalem holds spiritual authority in the see of Jerusalem, and that the pope -- currently Benedict XVI -- is in schism with this hierarch -- currently Theophilus III. Thus, the pope cannot assume control of a city over which he holds neither secular nor spiritual authority. The essence of the above runs thus: the pope bears absolutely no spiritual authority within the Church so long as he refuses to follow the dictums of Christ.
As for the rest of it, we must note that if the sole criterion for determining who has a right to the city is that it is "importance", and the fact that it is the first holy city of that religion, the Jews would have equal claim with Christians. I would suggest that we attempt to determine the validity/invalidity of the doctrines before we attempted to dismiss their claims.
That said, I would note that I do respect your reasoning, and I think it is sound, rational, and effective. This is a rarety in the modern era, and we are greatly indebted to you for setting the tone of the conversation.
-Akolouthos
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 07:29 |
Of course, we could do something really radical and give it to an ethnic group comprised of all three religions who have lived there since time immemorial.
Almost certainly their descendents are still living in Jerusalem despite the best efforts of others...
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Julius Augustus
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Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 09:35 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Of course, we could do something really radical and give it to an ethnic group comprised of all three religions who have lived there since time immemorial.
Almost certainly their descendents are still living in Jerusalem despite the best efforts of others...
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its been years since I have heard of the jebusites, are they still alive?
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beorna
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Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 15:58 |
Perhaps they should act in the way of King Salomon. Destroy Jerusalem. Perhaps it will show who loves it and who not.
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Cataln
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Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 01:08 |
It should be given to King Juan Carlos I - therefore, Jerusalem is Spanish. One of his titles is 'King of Jerusalem', so it must be true.
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pekau
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Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 10:15 |
Can't we just let the people in Jerusalem decide? It sounds unrealistic, but wouldn't it be logically sound for Jews and Palestines in Jerusalem city create their nation based on their self-determination? If we can impose some international force to preserve peace and economy of Palestine and Israel long enough, maybe they can set their differences aside and work as a Palestine-Jewish neutral society.
Again, highly unrealistic... but history had some odd and bizzare moments before...
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beorna
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Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 11:43 |
I think it's a question of power. On the Israeli side and the palestinian side the never ending war has advantages for some groups. And think of all the neighbours. Everybody has his interests in the trouble. It's the same in Northern Ireland. Should we believe it's a conflict between protestants and catholics? It's always a question of power, of economic influence, political influence and so on. If there is peace in Palestina what shall they do with all the soldiers, all those guys from Hamas and all the guys. What's with the billions for the weapon industry in Israel? The problems won't be solved, cause the political circles need it, that's my opinion. When ever there is a silver strip on the horizon one side starts to attack the other side. Peace is not what they really want.
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Cataln
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Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 13:53 |
Originally posted by pekau
Can't we just let the people in Jerusalem decide? It sounds unrealistic, but wouldn't it be logically sound for Jews and Palestines in Jerusalem city create their nation based on their self-determination? |
The issue is that orthodox Jews living in Jerusalem, such as my uncle, are fervent Zionist and are one of the major forces pulling strings, which is ultimately slowing the progress of establishing an independent Palestinian state in the Gaza Strip and West Bank [apart from Hamas, of course]. As a consequence, a large portion of Jews don't want to 'create their own state', because they already live in their own state. IMO, Jerusalem should be made an international city and governed by the UN. The Israeli capital should be moved to Tel A'viv.
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 08:26 |
Give it to the Eskimo.
Seriously though I don't see such a discussion going anywhere. I think it's interesting though.
Someone said that the Eastern Orthodox Churches fought amongst themselves, no, they're one religion. Spiritually Christian Akolouthus got it right.
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Mughal e Azam
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Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 06:32 |
Make Jerusalem the center of the world. Move the United Nations into Jerusalem and make it an international city like Singapur or Hong Kong with enough autonomous control where they can govern themselves effectively.
Of course this doesnt mean there wont be problems down the road, but with such a high profile real estate, expecting no problems is stupid in itself.
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Mughal e Azam
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