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The orgins of the Aryans?

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  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The orgins of the Aryans?
    Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 20:50
Where did the Aryans, Who desceded on India and conquered the peoples already there come from? Did they come west from Europe or from the Middle East or from Central Asia in the north? I've always assumed that, That had been unknown am I right?      
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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 21:51
There are several issues here.

1) Is there such a thing as an Aryan race? Especially in regards to the Vedic times? This has been hotly debated for a while now.

2) There was no Aryan invasion of India. Aryans did not conquer any parts of India. There is no evidence of any invasion. The Aryan Invasion Theory is a dead theory.

3) Aryanism in the Indian Subcontinent, until the first invasions of Pakistan, is only an issue of linguistics, not race. After, let's say a persian invasion, we can consider any "Aryan" this or that in India. Until then, it is linguistic alone.

So, to answer your question, the only people who had ever called themselves Aryan and led an invasion into the Indian Subcontinent were the persians, several hundreds of years after the vedas were established and the IVC long gone.


Edited by AlokaParyetra - 28-Apr-2007 at 21:52
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 09:42
It is evident that this entry is redundat and started purposely to divert.
 
There have been enough discussion has been going on under two different postings.
 
Better to concentrate in the respective threads instead of going astray.
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  Quote sreenivasarao s Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 14:20
This is one of the famous "false problems".
Entire question is wrong.
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 19:04
Well depends what you mean by aryans. People have migrated to and from ancient india and pakistan. They have also invaded into and out of those regions. So which "aryans" are you asking about because there were a lot of groups who are associated with aryans in one way or another. 
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  Quote pumaaa123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 03:52

Its actually a false theory. If there had been any such movement of Central Asian ppl to this sub-continent it would been well identified today. But the south asian-indian subconitent people are identified with their unique appearance worldover. If there had been any such movement then it would been visibly seen like the 'Mongals in Turkey'.

Even the dravidian theory is equally false. All the subcontinent people have their origin from indus civilization. The upper region had ppl of pale brown, the middle with brown and the lower region with more brownish. This too because of inhabitence of the people in the region for long time and this color impact is becuase of latitude of the regions to the sun ray.  People living down the equator are darker in color worldover be it chinese or native american indians.

 

For insisting the same, the group of afericanas whom travelled over the continents to australia some 20000 years before and stayed inbetween in certain pockets are till indentified with separate sects in south india and pakistan. Then how come such aryans were be left without any identification. But there is one possibility of such one small group been moved and mixed with local population whom are called Brahmins. Even in this case, the central asian content in this population would be very marginal. Still the sub-continent is revolving around the aryan-dravidian mis-concept.

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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 09:15

I've heard this idea that the "Aryan" migration to India is false so many times from Indian members... But I've never heard a satisfactory explanation of the linguistic connection between India and Europe and Iran, which did not take into account a migration. Using linguistics and archeology, the consensus among historians outside India is that Indo-Europeans migrated to India, Europe and Iran from their original homeland which could be either in Central Asia, the region north of the Black and Caspian seas or Central Asia. Also, I personally find a great enough difference between the common appearance of South Indians who speak Dravidian languages and North Indians who speak Indo-European languages, to believe that they did not both originate in India.

Granted, some aspects of the traditional AIT, such as the Aryans being warlike conquerors, are probably untrue, and the dating of their migration is still unclear. But a migration had to have occured at some point, to account for the linguistic difference.

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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 09:50
I would dispute that archeology points to any migration. In fact, if anything, it points to the opposite. Similarly, recent genetic studies would show that the population of India thousands of years ago would look roughly the same as it did now, pointing towards a lack of any new phenotypes infiltrating the genetic pool.

The movement of language can be independent of a large scale migration, which is in contrast to AIT or AMT. A case study would be the Malay people, who adopted both Hindu culture and language without any mass migration of Indians or invasion.

Regardless, however, i think it is a huge leap of faith, that when nothing outside of linguistic similarities points to a migration, to assume one. Why is a migration the base assumption? If Occam's Razor (a solution adding the fewest terms is the most probable) could be applied the AIT would be highly improbable.
Known terms:
1) Language can exist independent to race, i.e. someone who speaks Greek is not necessarily Greek.
2) Both language and religion can travel with a few people. Cases: Malay's Hindunization, and China's adoption of Buddhism.
3) There are several well documented sources of genetic variation; turkic invasion, delhi sultanate, mongol invasion, persian control, etc. Some with more impact than others.

Keeping all that in mind, i don't really see why the AIT is necessary.  All perceived phenotype differences can be explained using the above three known terms. As can the differences in language.

AIT does not explain anything that does not already have an explanation.


Edited by AlokaParyetra - 07-Jun-2007 at 09:51
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:38
The amount of fluffheaded, brainless bickering surrounding any discussion of migrations and invasions to and from India is just completely astounding. Its almost as if its only mental midgets with IQs of 50 are attracted to this topic and then dominate the discussions, preventing even a moderate application of the socratic method to this topic.

Anyway, I invite the Bharatis to put forth their counter theories and I will examine them for flaws and if necessary present more logical theories. This is a history forum, so lets get to the bottom of this very important historical "myth" or "fact" whichever one it may be and in whatever proportions.
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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 19:59
Was there any need for that first paragraph? I hope it wasn't directed at me, as i don't view any of my posts in this thread as "fluffheaded," or "brainless."

Back to the subject. To me, it seems that for one to claim the AIT as fact, he or she must be able to do the following:
1) Prove the existence of an Aryan race.
2) Show what characteristics constitute this Aryan race so that we may attribute whatever invasion we see as being the result of Aryans or not.
3) Show that the people who have the attributes of (2), and are thus Aryans in the racial sense, invaded the subcontinent.

If each of these points can be shown, then i will accept the AIT to hold true. Until then, i will believe it to be false.
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 23:10
There is no such thing as "the AIT" because if you refer to the Max Mueller theory of grey eyed platinum blonds invading South Asia and starting the Vedic Civilization there then he withdrew that theory himself shortly after postulating it. So all you Bharati hindutva types have been debunking the wrong theory for 60 years. Ermm

Now that we have that nonsense out of the way your 1..2..3.. requests have been thrown in the garbage can as well. Next, the ball is in your court. You are to come up with a new theory to debunk. Derive your next theory from the scriptures of the Mahabharata, linguistic characteristics of Sanskrit and genetic trace evidence in the Brahmin Caste.
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 00:06
Originally posted by AlokaParyetra

Known terms:
1) Language can exist independent to race, i.e. someone who speaks Greek is not necessarily Greek.
2) Both language and religion can travel with a few people. Cases: Malay's Hindunization, and China's adoption of Buddhism.
3) There are several well documented sources of genetic variation; turkic invasion, delhi sultanate, mongol invasion, persian control, etc. Some with more impact than others.

Keeping all that in mind, i don't really see why the AIT is necessary.  All perceived phenotype differences can be explained using the above three known terms. As can the differences in language.

AIT does not explain anything that does not already have an explanation.
 
By the way, you did not give an example of people adopting a language from a few people, only a religion, which is very different. For people to change their language, either mass migration or conquest is necessary. If you can show me one people who abandoned their own language because of trade or religion and where no mass migrations or conquests were involved, I'd liek to hear it.
 
So what you're saying is that somehow, either the languages of India and Europe would have to have travelled there via "a few people". However, the languages being related, they could not have originated over a wide geographical area (the European and Indian languages cannot both be native to their respective regions) This would mean that either
A)  Europe's languages were actually originary from India, spread there by "a few" traders and missionaries. Seeing as how for example even a thousand years of close proximity with the Roman empire could not make the Germans abandon their language, Indian cultural influence must have absolutely massive, spreading 10000 km all the way to Ireland. In that case, one would wonder why no significant traces of ancient Indian artifacts, Vedic religion or culture have been found anywhere in Europe.
B) It was India which imported the languages from "a few" outsider traders or missionaries. Since it is unlikely that a huge civilization was insecure enough in its culture to abandon its language for that of a few foreigners, the only explanation is either conquest or a mass migration by a foreign people.
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  Quote pumaaa123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 02:31

A)  Europe's languages were actually originary from India, spread there by "a few" traders and missionaries.

 

B) It was India which imported the languages from "a few" outsider traders or missionaries

 

Decebal, Yours A) and B) are totally contradictory to one another. See yourself!

 

Moreover, the sub-continent civilization is an oldest one with rich culture and tongue. Indus scripts clearly state its indigenous character which were mere symbols like bow and arrow, man, fish etc. (check www.harrappa.com) Later many more indigenous language branched-out from it which can be very well related to its native scirpt. The western civilization is quite younger which hadnt put any influence beyond its region till some 1000 years before.

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  Quote pumaaa123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 03:42

 

AlokaParyetra "Prove the existence of an Aryan race or any different cult"

 

If there had been any foreign sect of people, it would be plainly seen like 'Mongols in Turkey'. To less somewhere you can have like mixed-race people of South America. To classify the Indian-subcontinent people by color, therere pale brown, brown and thick brown people. Nasal, Skull are similar where the north-western region people have semi-Oblong skull and semi-piercing nasal shape. The south-eastern region people have squared skull and partly-piercing nasal shape. The few differentiating but intersecting groups could be the Kashmiri, Nepali, Tibeto.

 

This clearly shows the flow of the civilization from the Indus region to rest of the sub-continent. Moreover a civilization which existed for so long period will naturally have diversified 'sects'. To insist the above, the Han Chinese themselves have 80+ sects and a north-south fragment. The Native American Indian mass itself have 50+ sects with multiplicity by color, skull and nasal shape.

 

Nowhere can you match central-asian cult in this subcontinent.

 

 

Decebal "But I've never heard a satisfactory explanation of the linguistic connection between India and Europe and Iran, which did not take into account a migration."

 

AlokaParyetra "Language can exist independent to race"

 

Madwa caste people in india are kannadigas as well as marathis. South indian Vanniyakula caste people are tamils as well as telugus. Mongolia, Tibet, Manchuria, Thai too have heavy linguistic connection with indian languages. So will you connect those with this sub-continent? It doesnot require any mass migration or conquest for a region to speak a language. A foreign language can be imported and assimilated with the local colloquial speech to enrich the home slang. Same way, while long period of persistence people of same sect can be get absorbed into two different lingual. There had been many created languages like prakrit during gupta and maurgian regime. Both Black Afericanas and Philipino Malay follow same religion. So, Language and Religion are less to do with identification of the people of a region.

 

maqsad, there is no thuva/thiya here but wealthy stuffs which could help healthy discussions are good.



Edited by pumaaa123 - 08-Jun-2007 at 04:00
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 08:46
Originally posted by pumaaa123

A)  Europe's languages were actually originary from India, spread there by "a few" traders and missionaries.

 

B) It was India which imported the languages from "a few" outsider traders or missionaries

 

Decebal, Yours A) and B) are totally contradictory to one another. See yourself!

 

Moreover, the sub-continent civilization is an oldest one with rich culture and tongue. Indus scripts clearly state its indigenous character which were mere symbols like bow and arrow, man, fish etc. (check www.harrappa.com) Later many more indigenous language branched-out from it which can be very well related to its native scirpt. The western civilization is quite younger which hadnt put any influence beyond its region till some 1000 years before.

 
Which part of "either" don't you understand? The two points are contradictory on purpose: either one or the other is true.
You don't have to lecture me on the IVC, by the way. One thing though is that there's no need for a culture to be superior in order to impose its language upon another people. Look at the Arab invasion of Syria and Egypt for instance: both of those countries adopted the Arab language and religion, but it was the Arabs who adopted the Syriac and Egyptian civilization and way of life. This is an example of language imposed via conquest. Another example could be the Arameans migrating throughout the Middle East during the 1st millenium BC, and imposing their language, even though they were simple desert nomads and adopted the much older Akkadian/Sumerica/Assyrian civilization. This is an example of language imposed via mass migration.
There's no reason why a foreign people coming to India could not impose their language (and possibly their religion) upon a superior civilization, either by conquest or by mass migration.
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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 09:44
Originally posted by maqsad

There is no such thing as "the AIT" because if you refer to the Max Mueller theory of grey eyed platinum blonds invading South Asia and starting the Vedic Civilization there then he withdrew that theory himself shortly after postulating it. So all you Bharati hindutva types have been debunking the wrong theory for 60 years. Ermm

Now that we have that nonsense out of the way your 1..2..3.. requests have been thrown in the garbage can as well. Next, the ball is in your court. You are to come up with a new theory to debunk. Derive your next theory from the scriptures of the Mahabharata, linguistic characteristics of Sanskrit and genetic trace evidence in the Brahmin Caste.

Ooohh, wow, you got me there! I used AIT! I guess i'm wrong! I might as well give up now. What's a Hindutva fanatic like me (which, only you were able to figure out, despite all my posts which point to the contrary) trying to debate with such logic? Good job.

Ok, let's try AMT now. To me, it seems that for one to claim the AMT as fact, he or she must be able to do the following:
1) Prove the existence of an Aryan race.
2) Show what characteristics constitute this Aryan race so that we may attribute whatever migration we see as being the result of Aryans or not.
3) Show that the people who have the attributes of (2), and are thus Aryans in the racial sense, migrated in mass numbers into the subcontinent.

If each of these points can be shown, then i will accept the AMT to hold true. Until then, i will believe it to be false.

Originally posted by decebal


By the way, you did not give an example of people adopting a language from a few people, only a religion, which is very different. For people to change their language, either mass migration or conquest is necessary. If you can show me one people who abandoned their own language because of trade or religion and where no mass migrations or conquests were involved, I'd liek to hear it.


Right, i'm sorry if i caused any confusion. The Malay people were my example. The region widely spoke sanskrit by 1 AD, all without any Indian conquests. When i said Hindunization, i meant the adoption of both Hindu language and religion. Sorry about that.

quote
So what you're saying is that somehow, either the languages of India and Europe would have to have travelled there via "a few people". However, the languages being related, they could not have originated over a wide geographical area (the European and Indian languages cannot both be native to their respective regions) This would mean that either
A)  Europe's languages were actually originary from India, spread there by "a few" traders and missionaries. Seeing as how for example even a thousand years of close proximity with the Roman empire could not make the Germans abandon their language, Indian cultural influence must have absolutely massive, spreading 10000 km all the way to Ireland. In that case, one would wonder why no significant traces of ancient Indian artifacts, Vedic religion or culture have been found anywhere in Europe.[/quote]

And this is a ridiculous claim, and that is why i don't support it.


B) It was India which imported the languages from "a few" outsider traders or missionaries. Since it is unlikely that a huge civilization was insecure enough in its culture to abandon its language for that of a few foreigners, the only explanation is either conquest or a mass migration by a foreign people.


It is equally unlikely that a mass migration or conquest occurs without leaving any evidence behind. Why is there no archaeological evidence to support this claim? In fact, when has there been an invasion or mass migration without at least literature to indicate so? It is the lack of any evidence outside of linguistic similarities which makes me doubt any migration or invasion theories. I have shown that it is possible for a civilization adopting the language and customs of another without invasion or migration. I maintain that in order to prove an invasion or migration, one must first prove that the migratory race existed. Next, one must define what characteristics constitute this migratory race. Third, one must show that there was some sort of migration by the race as defined previously.

A few more things to consider:
1) If Sanskrit came with the newcomers, why is there no evidence of Sanskrit outside the subcontinent?
2) If an IE language (not Sanskrit) came with the newcomers, who later created Sanskrit within the subcontinent, why is there no evidence of the previous language?

The two above things are not in relation to anything else, nor am i using them as an argument. Just points to ponder.


Edited by AlokaParyetra - 08-Jun-2007 at 09:50
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 10:06
Originally posted by AlokaParyetra

Ooohh, wow, you got me there! I used AIT! I guess i'm wrong! I might as well give up now. What's a Hindutva fanatic like me (which, only you were able to figure out, despite all my posts which point to the contrary) trying to debate with such logic? Good job.

Ok, let's try AMT now. To me, it seems that for one to claim the AMT as fact, he or she must be able to do the following:
1) Prove the existence of an Aryan race.
2) Show what characteristics constitute this Aryan race so that we may attribute whatever migration we see as being the result of Aryans or not.
3) Show that the people who have the attributes of (2), and are thus Aryans in the racial sense, migrated in mass numbers into the subcontinent.

If each of these points can be shown, then i will accept the AMT to hold true. Until then, i will believe it to be false.


Why do you keep writing 1..2..3...point requirements? There is no "the AIT theory" neither is there "the AMT theory" which has to be debunked. You are making up weak straw man theories yourself and then offering to debunk them. Historians have a legitimate right to question how Bharat adopted the Caste system as its social order with the Brahmins right at the top and also how Bharat adopted an Indo-Aryan tongue, Sanskrit, which was refined to perfection by an ancient paki(panini), as its holy language.

You keep bringing up this nonsensical simplistic idea of grey eyed, blond haired warriors coming down from Russia, by invasion or migration, and turning the entire Bharati civilization into an Indo-Aryan one. Nobody really cares to go that far but you do not have any explanation as to how the languages in the south of Bharat in 32000 BC were different from the languages in the Afghanistan/Pakistan area in 500 BC...and you do not have an explanation as to how those ancient paki vernacular dialects became the dominant languages of most of North India and you have no explanation as to how the formal version of those prakriti dialects(sanskrit) became the language of the intelligensia in all of Bharat and remains so to this day.

Start by explaining that instead of making up your silly little 1...2...3 challenges. Enquiring minds want to know!
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 10:13
My personal view on this is that Sanskrit and other Indo-European languages (Iranian, Greek, Latin, German, Celtic, etc), all had their origins in a common language. The similarities in the core words (numbers, family relations, body parts), as well as grammar, are enough evidence for me to accept the existence of a language which later branched into these groups. The major question is not whether this branching happened, but rather when and how.
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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 10:29
Originally posted by maqsad

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra

Ooohh, wow, you got me there! I used AIT! I guess i'm wrong! I might as well give up now. What's a Hindutva fanatic like me (which, only you were able to figure out, despite all my posts which point to the contrary) trying to debate with such logic? Good job.

Ok, let's try AMT now. To me, it seems that for one to claim the AMT as fact, he or she must be able to do the following:
1) Prove the existence of an Aryan race.
2) Show what characteristics constitute this Aryan race so that we may attribute whatever migration we see as being the result of Aryans or not.
3) Show that the people who have the attributes of (2), and are thus Aryans in the racial sense, migrated in mass numbers into the subcontinent.

If each of these points can be shown, then i will accept the AMT to hold true. Until then, i will believe it to be false.


Why do you keep writing 1..2..3...point requirements? There is no "the AIT theory" neither is there "the AMT theory" which has to be debunked. You are making up weak straw man theories yourself and then offering to debunk them. Historians have a legitimate right to question how Bharat adopted the Caste system as its social order with the Brahmins right at the top and also how Bharat adopted an Indo-Aryan tongue, Sanskrit, which was refined to perfection by an ancient paki(panini), as its holy language.

You keep bringing up this nonsensical simplistic idea of grey eyed, blond haired warriors coming down from Russia, by invasion or migration, and turning the entire Bharati civilization into an Indo-Aryan one. Nobody really cares to go that far but you do not have any explanation as to how the languages in the south of Bharat in 32000 BC were different from the languages in the Afghanistan/Pakistan area in 500 BC...and you do not have an explanation as to how those ancient paki vernacular dialects became the dominant languages of most of North India and you have no explanation as to how the formal version of those prakriti dialects(sanskrit) became the language of the intelligensia in all of Bharat and remains so to this day.

Start by explaining that instead of making up your silly little 1...2...3 challenges. Enquiring minds want to know!


Note that this thread is about the origin of the Aryans? Keeping the spirit of the original poster in mind, i am challenging the notion of either a conquest or migration. Both AIT and AMT are the commonly held views on this forum (for example, Decebal believe in a version of AMT), and i put forth the conditions that must be proven true before you can accept the theory. I'm sorry if this did not address your specific view on the subject, but seeing as you didn't come forth with your point of view, i assumed (perhaps i shouldn't have) that you fell into one of those two camps.

I pray, tell me, what is your view on the subject? How did the language get into the subcontinent?

I'll start. I believe that we don't know how the language came into the subcontinent. We know it's there now. Chances are, it came in from outside. But, that's all we really know. But, i would much rather admit that i don't know, than come up with some bs arguments to fill in the gaps.

Originally posted by decebal


My personal view on this is that Sanskrit and other Indo-European languages (Iranian, Greek, Latin, German, Celtic, etc), all had their origins in a common language. The similarities in the core words (numbers, family relations, body parts), as well as grammar, are enough evidence for me to accept the existence of a language which later branched into these groups. The major question is not whether this branching happened, but rather when and how.


And i don't think there is a soul in the world who does not admit to these similarities or common origin. Like you said, the question is when and how,  and in relation to India, when and how it got there, and i have yet to find a theory which explains this. Until then, i will hold my head up high and admit that i do not know. I would rather admit that there are no good explanation than tag along to some bs explanation that is full of holes. There is no such thing as "good enough." It's either right, or not.


Edited by AlokaParyetra - 08-Jun-2007 at 10:31
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 23:25
Originally posted by AlokaParyetra

Note that this thread is about the origin of the Aryans? Keeping the spirit of the original poster in mind, i am challenging the notion of either a conquest or migration. Both AIT and AMT are the commonly held views on this forum (for example, Decebal believe in a version of AMT), and i put forth the conditions that must be proven true before you can accept the theory. I'm sorry if this did not address your specific view on the subject, but seeing as you didn't come forth with your point of view, i assumed (perhaps i shouldn't have) that you fell into one of those two camps.


You just wont stop with this AIT and AMT nonsense will you? Nobody in this thread is pushing either one but you keep acting like there is someone pushing these two extreme, simplistic theories and then you "debunk" them with your self created 1...2...3 challenges.

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


I pray, tell me, what is your view on the subject? How did the language get into the subcontinent?


My view is Sanskrit was brought in from and also refined(in northern pakistan) and it is clearly different from dravidian dialects. Pre-sanskrit may have entered Pakistan/Afghanistan due to migration/invasions from the Khazakhistan areas particularly in 3200 BC and also before. There is evidence that besides dominating Bharati linguistics and intelligencia it also did the same to Europe and pushed aside gaellic and celtic languages. 

But theories like this are not given their due attention because you and your kind keep making up these ridiculous distractions using buzzwords like "the AIT" and "the AMT" while you spam and hijack discussions.

Originally posted by AlokaParyetra


I'll start. I believe that we don't know how the language came into the subcontinent. We know it's there now. Chances are, it came in from outside. But, that's all we really know. But, i would much rather admit that i don't know, than come up with some bs arguments to fill in the gaps.


You weren't admitting anything before you were just debunking ridiculous extremest "theories" that nobody had mentioned before.
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