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NikeBG
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Topic: Co-operation of the Balkan people Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 14:53 |
In the "Who do Greeks consider closer" thread I had said I would look up into some brighter examples of Balkan history, examples of goodness and co-operation in our controversial region, so that we can leave aside the common old view of the Balkans as "the powder-keg of Europe". Because the good examples are better than the bad ones, aren't they? Therefore, we start with some things about the Bulgarians participating in the liberation movements of the Greeks and the Serbs. If someone else could give other such examples of co-operation and good will between the Balkan people, no matter from which time, feel free to share it here for the goodness not only of the Balkaners, but of all readers! Participation in the Serbian Uprising. At
the end of the 18th century a revolutionary situation came to a head in
the Balkans. Under the impact of the French Revolution, the prominent
Creek revolutionary Rigas Velestinlis raised aloft the banner of the
Republic and proclaimed the struggle for freedom as the most sacred
human right. The Serbian people rose to arms. This gave a strong
impetus to the development of national liberation movements among the
other peoples in bondage because it showed the Balkan nations that the
power of a small people was enough to win a number of victories over an
age-old Empire when all were inspired by the idea of freedom and were
ready to give their life for it. The population of North-Western
Bulgaria and the Bulgarian immigrants in the Danubian principalities
responded with sympathy to the struggle of the Serbian people and were
not late in joining the events, rising up in a revolt along the Serbian
border regions, and forming a powerful volunteer movement in support of
the Serbian uprising. The whole region from Vidin to Sofia and
to the West, where Bulgarians lived, was swept by revolts.The number of
Bulgarian volunteers who in 1807 alone appeared in the territory of
Serbia was more than 4,000. The participation of the Bulgarians in
the Russo-Turkish War of 1806-1812 marked new moments in their
liberation struggle. An independent volunteer detachment (a Bulgarian
people' s army) was set up during the war. A Bulgarian committee,
headed by Sophronius, was established at the Russian Command; he
addressed militant appeals to the Bulgarian people. The appeal to
Russia for support made by prominent Bulgarians and signed of behalf of
the whole Bulgarian people, was the first clear statement of the
political aspirations of the Bulgarians for their liberation.
The Bulgarians and the Greek Uprising.
When, somewhat later, in 1821 the Greek Uprising broke
out, conceived and organized by Philiki Eteria on a broad all Balkan
foundation, it won the sympathy of the masses of the Bulgarian people. Several
thousand Bulgarians with a number of prominent commanders, such as Dimiter and
Pavel Makedonski, Alexander Nikolaevich, Indje Voyvoda, and others, from
Bessarabia, formed one of the basic contingents of the forces of Ypsilanti and a great
part of the forces of Vladimirescu. They fought bravely. The Greek historian I.
Philimon, a contemporary of the uprising, wrote about the development of the
Danubian principality: 'Greece was born in the battles at Galati Dragsani,
Sculeni, and Secu, with the loss of great numbers of'Greek heroes and
beloved sons of the people of the same religion - our brothers Serbs and
Bulgarians; they all died the death of heroes.'
When the uprising flared up in Greece, the Bulgarians, who found a
way by hundreds to make their appearance in the front ranks of the fighters and
took part with honour as was generally recognized in all the greater battles
for the freedom of the Greek people, were the most numerous among all
volunteers. The struggle was waged on Greek territory against forces many times
superior to those of the rebels. All illusions about the success of the
uprising outside Greece
were lost; nevertheless, the numerous Bulgarian forces, headed by such glorious
commanders as Hadji Hristo and Hadji Mihail embraced the Greek cause as a cause
of their own and thus won the gratitude of the coming generations.
With their active participation in the liberation struggle of Serbs and Greeks
in the early years of the 19th century the Bulgarians established lasting
cooperation in the revolutionary struggles, a cooperation which continued to
manifest itself to varying degrees, in the following decades as well.
Taken from here
My school-book History and
civilization for 11th grade, Prosveta, Sofia, 2001 Lesson №28. Political movements
and armed manifestations of the Bulgarians until the middle of the XIX century
Chapter Participation of the Bulgarians in the
liberation battles of the Serbian and the Greek people
The
liberation tendencies among the Bulgarians are stimulated by the fights of the neighbouring Christian nations. They take part in them
under the motto battle for faith as they hope that they will receive help
when their time comes. In the First Serbian uprising, which has started in
1804, the Bulgarians take part in masses in support of the Serbs. In the border
regions there are a number of armed risings and the detachments of Haidut Velko
Petrov, Kondo voivoda, Dragan Papazoglu, which number up to several thousand
people each, take part in the decisive battles. Known is the so-called Ichkos
peace, merits for which has the Bulgarian Petar Ichko from Voden.
The war
between Russia and the Ottoman Empire from 1806 gives new hopes to the
Bulgarians. The support to the Russian army is directed by the political centre
of Sophronius of Vratsa. The meetings with military and diplomatic
representatives of Petersburg,
the support of Zambin and Nekovich, the gathering of intelligence reports in
favour of the Russians, the appeals to the Bulgarian people in 1810 and the
establishment of the Bulgarian zemska army are a part of the initiative of this
centre in support of the Russian army. Besides this, the Bulgarian detachments,
led by Georgi Mamarchev, display real heroism in the fights at Silistra.
According to the Bucharest peace treaty from
1812 Russia preserves its
right for patronage of the Christian nations in the Ottoman
Empire.
Even more
massive is the participations of the Bulgarians in the Greek rebellion, which
started in 1821. They join the detachments of Alexader Ipsilanti and Tudor
Vladimiresku in the transdanubian principalities and in the structure of the
Greek forces in continental Greece.
Hadji Hristo, Angel Gatso, Angel Sofianer, Hadji Mihal, Petar Moraliata, Ivan
Seliminski and many other famous Bulgarians give their contribution in the
fight of our southern neighbours. A part
of them rise and receive leading posts in the Greek army and after this they
take part in the building of free Greece.
The
Russo-Turkish war from 1828-1829 ends with the Edirne
peace treaty, which gives freedom to Greece
and the autonomies of Serbia,
Wallachia and Moldavia
are extended. During the military actions the Bulgarian detachments in the army
of gen. Dibich Zabalkanski are led by G. Mamarchev and Panayotis Fokiano.
During its whole battle campaign the Russian army is supported by the
Bulgarians, as the rebellious uprisings are especially considerable in
South-Eastern Bulgaria. After the signing of the peace, G. Mamarchev prepares a
rebellion in the Kotlen and Sliven
regions, but it is thwarted under the orders of the Russian command. For the
magnitude of the Bulgarian participation in this war we can judge by the fact
that after the withdrawal of the Russian army from the eastern Bulgarian lands,
around one hundred thousand Bulgarians leave their settlements and move to the
north of the Danube, as they settle in Moldavia, Besarabia and Southern Russia.
This most massive debulgarization of Eastern Bulgaria
reflects most negatively on the process of erection of te Bulgarian nation.
Document of the age The Bulgarians in the
Greek rebellion
List of the
voevods of General Hadji Hristo with the number of their soldiers
Published
by N. Todorov, V. Traykov. Bulgarians,
participants in the battles for the liberation of Greece, 1821-1828, S., 1971
My cavalry 385
To Konsta
Servos 100
To Hadji Bairaktaris 100
To Yanko 90
725
To
Anagnostit Stilidiotis 50
To Yanulis 25
To Hadji
Stefan 150
To Hadji
Stavros 40
1070
To Yani
Pelgamlis 30
To Nanos
Emanuil 65
To Luka
Lavaditis 95
To Georgi
Bugiuka 25
1330
To Georgi
Stilidiotis 35
To Duka
Stilidiotis 20
To Angel
Sofianer 15
(theyre in
the fortress)
To Gika
Georgiu 50
To Stefo
Servos 50
To Anagnotis Bulgarian 100
All
together 1600
Patriot: Hora,
20.IV.1825 Hadji Hristo Bulgarian
P.S. Later I'll eventually add a scanned picture of Hadji Hristo...
Edited by NikeBG - 23-Jul-2006 at 17:52
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Giannis
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Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 19:52 |
Some enlighted people, had the vision of independed nations working together in a kind of ''federation''.
From the greek side this person was Rigas Feraios. He dreamed of this federation in the 17th century, but his revolutionary ideas condemned him, he was arrested by the austrian authorities in Trieste and handed over to the turkish authorities in Belgrade. He was executed by drowning in the Danube river.
Some extracts from his most famous poem ''Thourios''
''Bulgarians and Arvanites, Armenians and Greeks,
Black and whites with one cause,
for our freedom to take our swords...
...we will light a torch through the whole Turkey
from Bosnia untill Arabia...
... we will slaughter the wolves that are holding our chains
and christians and Turks oppress.''
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Red_Lord
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Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 14:16 |
Originally posted by Giannis
Some enlighted people, had the vision of independed nations working together in a kind of ''federation''.
From the greek side this person was Rigas Feraios. He dreamed of this federation in the 17th century, but his revolutionary ideas condemned him, he was arrested by the austrian authorities in Trieste and handed over to the turkish authorities in Belgrade. He was executed by drowning in the Danube river.
Some extracts from his most famous poem ''Thourios''
''Bulgarians and Arvanites, Armenians and Greeks,
Black and whites with one cause,
for our freedom to take our swords...
...we will light a torch through the whole Turkey
from Bosnia untill Arabia...
... we will slaughter the wolves that are holding our chains
and christians and Turks oppress.'' |
Sounds good but is it possible???
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"The slave is fighting for freedom,free is fighting for perfectness"
Yane Sandanski
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Antioxos
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Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 14:27 |
The best co operation is the support from Greece to Romania and Bulgaria to enter E.U..With this way we are gonna create a region of peace without borders where the people and the good will circle free.I hope that will happen in the begining of 2007.
Rigas Feraios had this vision because this period all the nations where mixed up inside the Ottoman Empire and it was very difficult separate the people to national states.
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Giannis
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Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 17:28 |
Originally posted by Red_Lord
Sounds good but is it possible??? |
Now days propably not. But, who knows what would happened back then, the great powers were reforming (England, France, Prussia, Austria, Russia). It's a small possibility, but it's a possibility that a balkan confederation could occur.
Antioxos is right the modern borders that we have are the result of numerous wars and ethic cleansing or exchanging, back then there were areas that had multi-national identity.
Who knows maybe E.U. will make, what the balkan nations failed to do. Bring peace and stabillity to our peninsula.
Edited by Giannis - 23-Jul-2006 at 17:32
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bg_turk
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Posted: 24-Jul-2006 at 20:28 |
Originally posted by NikeBG
In the "Who do Greeks consider closer" thread I had said I would look up into some brighter examples of Balkan history, examples of goodness and co-operation in our controversial region, so that we can leave aside the common old view of the Balkans as "the powder-keg of Europe". Because the good examples are better than the bad ones, aren't they? |
Well, there are many Balkan Turks as well and the examples that you have found are mostly cooperation between the Christians in the Balkans in order to kill and get rid of the Muslims. What you refer to as "wars of liberation" to muslims were invasions and acts of ethnic cleanisng and genocide. I think with such examples you are alienating the Muslim people in the Balkans. I think cooperation between the Christian Balkan people would be a more appropriate topic for this thrad. By the way I appreciate the info and I agree with it, but I do not view this kind of cooperation in a positive light as you are trying to paint it in.
Edited by bg_turk - 24-Jul-2006 at 20:30
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NikeBG
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Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 03:34 |
If I knew an example where all Balkan people are co-operating, no matter the religion, I would've given it. But since I don't know or remember one, I'm giving "smaller" examples. Maybe you could give examples of co-operation between Turks and Christians. I think that the "kurdzhalii" times f.e. could be a good material for that. Care to enhance that subject?
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Giannis
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Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 04:33 |
There is a case that Christians allied with Muslims in Balkans. The Second Balkan War, Serbia-Greece-Romania-Turkey against Bulgaria, but, I can't recall a single occasion were the indepented Balkan nations fought all together for a common cause.
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xristar
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Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 06:49 |
In WWII Greece and Turkey were somewhat allied. Even though Turkey did not participate in the war, she allowed the fleeing from the Germans Evros brigade to escape through Turkey to the british Palestine. The Evros brigade was the core of the Greek army of north Africa.
In late 18th century (I have no idea when exactly) the ottomans were trying to get rid of albanian bands that were operating in Peloponnese. They used Greek bands to do the job.
Greeks and Turks also cooperated against Ali Pasha of Yannena, when he tried to build his own kingdom or something, in early 19th century (before and during the Greek revolution).
During the 'Macedonian Struggle' of 1904-1908, when Greek and Bulgarian bands were clashing in Macedonia, there was also a Greek captain in Korytsa, who was muslim in religion. (Captain Soulios, I think).
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Red_Lord
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 07:19 |
Originally posted by Giannis
There is a case that Christians allied with Muslims in Balkans. The Second Balkan War, Serbia-Greece-Romania-Turkey against Bulgaria, but, I can't recall a single occasion were the indepented Balkan nations fought all together for a common cause. |
I think it is not a good example.The alliance was inspirated by political goals.In co operated Balkans there isn't place for ideas like that.
In WWI Bulgaria and Turkey are also allied.It become one year after Socond Balkan War.I think no one want such kind of co operation.
Here is my example.I live near Greek border(Sandanski).In local radio have said that in town live about 700-800 greeks constantly.So I am with them in discos,in church,in agora.And to now there aren't any problems.This Easter in town's church I was listening:"Xristos voskrese" and answeres "Xristos avesti".
The same is the situation in Sidero Casstro,Seres,Xanty,Drama and Iraklia(again near the border).There live many bulgars.I think there aren't problems in the towns.
The biggest problem is language,but as I see in near years it will be not so big problem.Even if you don't want to learn Ellinika It is everywhere as Bulgarian in Northern Greece.There are greeks that speak my mother language better than me (I speak dialect).After 2007 the region will be a real co-operation of macedonian bulgars,bulgars and greeks.
But I think with turks it will be more difficult.
Edited by Red_Lord - 03-Aug-2006 at 07:22
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Mila
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 08:32 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Well, there are many Balkan Turks as well and the
examples that you have found are mostly cooperation between the
Christians in the Balkans in order to kill and get rid of the Muslims.
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I was thinking the same thing as I read it. The people who cooperated
in that uprising are the same who'd cooperate now - it's no big deal.
It'd like making a huge shock because Bosnians and Albanians fought
together in Kosovo - sure, their history isn't one of GREAT love
between the two but... it's common sense they'd be together in that
situation.
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NikeBG
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 09:31 |
Ok, since BG_Turk hasn't shown any will to search a bit about the Kurdzhalii times, when Bulgars and Muslims/Turks "co-operated" with each other, I'll go read some stuff and later come back here. Unfortunately, I haven't remembered so far of any example about full co-operation between all or most Balkanians, especially large scale co-operation between Christians and Muslims. If there are such, they're probably not so popular, which, IMHO, is too sad, as those examples would be much much more constructive than the numerous (and well propagated) examples of feud and wars. If we can't find large scale examples of good will, then maybe we should look at smaller ones, even as of today. F.e. I remember about many villages in the Rhodopes region, where Muslims (this includes Turks and Pomaks) and Bulgarians live side by side quite peacefully. In some cases I even remember that f.e. in one village the church was in a very bad condition, so both the Christians AND the Muslims collected money to rebuild it. Too bad that this tolerance is growing weaker and weaker in the urban world today... Edit: Ah, so it really is hard to find good information on the net about Osman Pazvantoglu's separatism and the kurdzhalii brigands (Bulgarians, Turks and all others) on his side! I'll have to check Vera Mutafchieva's book about that when I go back home (although I don't know when would that happen)... Edit2: Mila (Dear), then we could include examples of co-operation against a foreign threat or a natural disaster. I was thinking about it myself, but I can't remember also any big natural disasters, so... But, really, there just must be good examples for good will between the Balkan people! There must be!!! Otherwise, this wouldn't speak good for us, for all of us...
Edited by NikeBG - 03-Aug-2006 at 10:36
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Mila
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 10:13 |
The only situations I can find where Balkan people have co-operated is when there was a larger, exterior threat.
Even in Bosnia, which was undoubtably one - if not the - most peacefully diverse country in the Balkans, it's very hard to come up with examples that do not fit this routine.
Even when you take the many examples of cooperation under threat from an outside force, it's not complete.
Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs resisted the Ottoman Empire
in its later years, but the same rebellion was beaten down by other
Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats who fought for the Empire.
Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs resisted the
Austro-Hungarian Empire for its entire reign over Bosnia and
Herzegovina, but the number of Bosnian Croats who supported it was far
higher than those who did not.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 10:37 |
Originally posted by Mila
I was thinking the same thing as I read it. The people who cooperated
in that uprising are the same who'd cooperate now - it's no big deal.
It'd like making a huge shock because Bosnians and Albanians fought
together in Kosovo - sure, their history isn't one of GREAT love
between the two but... it's common sense they'd be together in that
situation.
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I never heard that and it seems improbable because Kosovo war began at
least one year after the first war ended. Also the KLA was well
supplied with weapons and manpower from Albania, here in the US, and
elsewhere. Can you tell me where did you read it or was is just
isolated incidents that you've heard about?
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Mila
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 10:55 |
Vulcan - I mean Kosovo's Bosniak population, they sided with the Albanians. Not Bosniaks from Bosnia, Bosniaks from Kosovo.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 11:53 |
In that case there's nothing surprising about it for two main reasons. Both are of muslim faith and Bosniaks were probably looking to defend themselves by siding with Kosovo's ethnic Albanians.
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bg_turk
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 12:13 |
Originally posted by NikeBG
Ok, since BG_Turk hasn't shown any will to search a bit about the
Kurdzhalii times, when Bulgars and Muslims/Turks "co-operated" with
each other, I'll go read some stuff and later come back here.
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Sorry, NikeBG, I was pretty busy these days. Unfortunately on a
political level I believe it would be hard to find cooperation between
all the Balkan people, because Balkan politics is based on antagonism.
One nations myth of liberation is another myth of slavery, one's prosperity is anothers misery. The few examples of Muslim-Christian cooperation I know of are the Turkish-Bulgarian alliance during WW1 against
Serbia-Turkey, and there is another one in Western Thrace of which
Charge made me aware, between Greeks and Turks against Bulgarians during BW2, and
also the few joint uprisings against the Sultan (contrary to common
misconception Turks too had rebelled on many occasions against the
Port, even though they had to pay much smaller taxes than the
Christians )
Even though acts of cooperation on a national and political level are rare, on an individual level pople have alway cooperated.
We have lived for centiures in villages and towns in which
mosques and churches were situated next to each other,
and in which the christians were awaken by the voice of the Hodja and
the Muslims by the church bells and yet, this has never been the source
of any conflict and hatred (before nationalism poisoned everything that
is).
For centuries Christian and Muslims alike have lived as komshus
(neighbours) celebrating each others holidays. I heard there were often
these small doors into each others houses, through which they would run
away and hide within their neighbours house when Bashibozuks or Hayduks
attacked. In short as they say in Bulgaria people used to be "dupe i gashti" ("pants and pussy" in English? ).
For centuries we, Muslims and Christians alike, have worked on the same
fields under the same scorching sun, endured the same oppression and
poverty.
For centuries we have lived mixed in all corners of the Balkans, until
nationalism saw us apart and made a brother kill a brother, and a
neighbour kill a neighbour.
Edited by bg_turk - 03-Aug-2006 at 12:17
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Theodore Felix
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 13:29 |
Vulcan - I mean Kosovo's Bosniak population, they sided with the Albanians. Not Bosniaks from Bosnia, Bosniaks from Kosovo |
Many, but many others didnt. Like many Prizren Turks, there were quite a few who sided with the Serbs claiming to be "ethnically persecuted and subjected to assimilation" by the KLA. though these charges have never quite been proven...
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Theodore Felix
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 13:30 |
Vulcan - I mean Kosovo's Bosniak population, they sided with the Albanians. Not Bosniaks from Bosnia, Bosniaks from Kosovo |
Many, but many others didnt. Like many Prizren Turks, there were quite a few who sided with the Serbs claiming to be "ethnically persecuted and subjected to assimilation" by the KLA. though these charges have never quite been proven...
Greeks and Turks also cooperated against Ali Pasha of Yannena, when he tried to build his own kingdom or something, in early 19th century (before and during the Greek revolution). |
How so? Ali pasha was one of the main figures who even allowed the Greek revolt to happen. The Turks focused all their attention on squashing him thereby allowing the Greek uprising. Infact late in his life Ali Pasha himself went through a pro-Hellenism movement. A vast amount of people in Ali Pasha's court were Greeks(his doctor, Veli who later created a unique version of the Albanian alphabet by a mixture of Greek letters and latin). Not to mention many revolutionaries themselves had ties to Ali.
Edited by Theodore Felix - 03-Aug-2006 at 13:36
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bg_turk
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 14:10 |
Originally posted by Theodore Felix
Many, but many others didnt. Like many Prizren Turks, there were quite a few who sided with the Serbs claiming to be "ethnically persecuted and subjected to assimilation" by the KLA. though these charges have never quite been proven...
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Interesting. What are your sources for that assertion? I searched on the net, and came accross this article: http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=540
Especially with the recognition of the autonomous status of Kosovo in
1974, Kosovos Muslim Albanians started assimilating every other Muslim
ethnicity in the region (Turks, Muslim Gypsies, Pomaks and Bosnians).
For instance, they encouraged Turks to boycott Serbian schools. Those
Turks, who did not follow that boycott, were called Milos, and some
of them even suffered from physical violence. Ironically, in 1989 when
Milosevic suppressed the autonomy of Kosovo, Turks were released from
that Albanian pressure. |
but then it goes on to say that
Turks and Serbs have a history of conflict dating back to the 14th
century. This historical antagonism and the unity of faith of these
Turks with Kosovo Albanians made out of Turks strong supporters of the
NATO during the 1990s. Turkey welcomed refugees fleeing the crisis,
and agreed to take as many as 20.000 of them. After the war, they
returned to their homes.
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Edited by bg_turk - 03-Aug-2006 at 14:11
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