Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
rakovsky
Knight
Joined: 07-Aug-2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 51
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Is the Egyptian word NTR(god) from Nut/Neith + Ra? Posted: 07-Aug-2016 at 14:55 |
Scholars find the meanings and etymology of the Egyptian word for "God" a mystery. The word is NTR, pronounced Neter. Some scholars propose that it means "Nature", "element", or "principle". A review of The Temple in Man by R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz lays out this theory: Schwaller
de Lubicz explains in Le Temple de l'Homme (Caracteres, 1957) that in
the ancient temple civilization of Egypt, numbers, our most ancient form
of symbol, did not simply designate quantities but instead were
considered to be concrete definitions of energetic formative principles of nature. The Egyptians called these energetic principles Neters, a word which is conventionally rendered as "gods." To
conform with the true meaning of the symbol in ancient Egypt, we ought
to use the Egyptian term Medu-Neteru, the Greek translation of which,
"heiroglyphs," distorts the Egyptian meaning. Medu-Neteru are the Neters, or the principles conveyed by a sign. ... "'Divine"
man (without this part of the brain ) represents the Principle or
Neter, capable of living and acting, but only as the executant of an
impulse that he receives; hence, he plays the role of an
intermediary between the abstract impulse, outside of Nature, and its
execution in Nature, without actual choice. In this regard, this entity
has a primitive, and "prenatural" character
...each of these
individual members of the vegetable kingdom belongs to a genus, and this
genus to a family; and these families belong to an original "lineage."
At the head of this lineage is a Neter, a "Principle" synthesizing all
the characteristics of this lineage: its number, its rhythm, its
classification in the general harmony. Let us further elucidate, by means of a geometrical image, the role of the Neter as head or Principle of a lineage.
http://www.fatuma.net/text/R.A.SchwallerdeLubicz-TheTempleinMan-SacredArchitectureandthePerfectMan.pdf
Stephen S. Mahler writes in Land of Osiris about NTR and this theory that NTR means element or nature: First
translated by early Egyptologists after Champollion as God or Goddess,
this meaning ["god"] has since been challenged. R A Schwaller de Lubicz
was one of the first to question this translation in the early 1950's,
choosing rather to define Neter as principle" and/or "attribute", as a
divine aspect of the whole, not in the sense we use the word Deity. The [
Latins] derived their word Nature from Neter, therefore equating the
Divine with the natural as the Khemitians taught them. The ancient
Khemitians knew every principle or attribute of Nature was also divine,
of God - all interconnected and interrelated to the whole, the source. The book Religion and the Order of Nature by Seyyed Hossein Nasr (Professor of Islamic Studies at George Washington University) says: ...there
are basic principles concerning the order of nature that continue
through these transformations, such as the identification of cosmic
elements with real divinities possessing a personal existence. Most
important of these principles for the understanding of the order of
nature is the Neter , which has received many interpretations, some even
equating it with the Hebrew Wl. The Neter is a principle conveyed by a sign, the hieroglyph being itself called Medu-Neteru. It is the Idea of which a material object is the crystallization. ... The order of nature is the reflection of the order that belongs to the realm of the principles or Neteru,
which man also carries within his being as a consequence of his central
position in the cosmic order. 'Every natural type is a revelation of
one of the natures and abstract functions that rule the world, a verb of
the divine language —that is, the entities or fully realized Principles
(Neteru). A weakness in this theory is that these particular scholars are not major Egyptologists. Some propose that the Latin word for Nature, Natura, comes from Egyptian NTR. But others disagree and say that there is no direct connection, and that Natura only comes from Natalis, the latin word for birth. What do you think?Next I will lay out my theory that NTR comes from Nut/Neith + Ra.
|
|
rakovsky
Knight
Joined: 07-Aug-2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 51
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Aug-2016 at 15:40 |
Let me explain my theory here. First, consider that in other ancient civilizations, the word for god at that time bore a phonetic resemblance, because T is an unvoiced D. So the Sumerians, proto-Turkics, Chinese, and Indo-Europeans called God Dingir, Tengri, Tien, and Dyeus. These word not only meant god, but they also meant heavens/sky. And with the exception of Tien in Chinese, they also meant day, brightness, or shining. So we might consider whether the word in Egyptian, NTR, had a related meaning. In each of those other societies, we see that this word for God not only referred the word deity as such, but also referred to a particular supreme deity, with the exception perhaps of Tengri, which perhaps only referred to a supreme deity. Next, looking at the names of Egyptian gods who begin with N, we find that there are such gods:NuNeT, the primordial waters that are in the heavens; Nut, the heavens/sky; Neith, a warrior/weaver goddess who is also equated with the heavens. Each of these deities is equated with the celestial waters and the heavens. Next, we look for an R or for the meaning of brightness, day, and shining, and we come across Ra(Sun) and Horus (Falcon). They are gods closely equated or associated with each other, as Ra/sun on the horizon is called Horus. Horus is the god of light and Ra is the god of day. Consider also that Tien is a supreme ruler of the heavens. The Chinese and Egyptians imagined that the worlds in the heavens and on earth paralleled each other, with a supreme ruler on each. In Egyptian mythology, Neith and Hathor are the queens or are associated with the Egyptian queens. Hathor means "mansion of Horus" and she was also equated with Neith and Nut as the celestial waters and heavens. Neith, Hathor, and Nut were all depicted as a celestial cow in this concept. For their part, the male pharaohs were the sons of Ra and embodiments of Horus, respectively. Let's consider another aspect of these chief deities- their status as a Creator. Dingir referred to An who was the progenitor of the gods, while Dyeus was Dyeus Pater, the sky father of the gods. Indeed, being a creator of the gods would be a character of a supreme deity, which is what we are looking for. For example, one theory on the etymology of Dingir - is that it means Creator from the verb, Dinge, to create, as Sayce proposed in the 19th century. SEE: https://books.google.com/books?id=Rp4qAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=%22dingir%22+sumer+OR+sumerian+etymology&source=bl&ots=Lo_Aphd3ca&sig=MESDlZsZ2pyF3dFP2V5QbI9WMAk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjurvLcjavOAhVEgx4KHTm6AdwQ6AEIfjAQ#v=onepage&q=%22dingir%22%20sumer%20OR%20sumerian%20etymology&f=false Wikipedia notes Neith's status as a Creator/Creatrix:
It is at these changing points that Neith reigns as a form of sky
goddess, where the sun rises and sets daily, or at its ‘first
appearance’ to the sky above and below. It is at these points, beyond
the sky that is seen, that her true power as deity who creates life is
manifested.
As the goddess of creation and weaving, she was said to reweave the world on her loom daily. An interior wall of the temple at Esna records an account of creation in which Neith brings forth from the primeval waters of the Nun
the first land. All that she conceived in her heart comes into being
including the thirty gods. Having no known husband she has been
described as "Virgin Mother Goddess":
- Unique Goddess, mysterious and great who came to be in the beginning
and caused everything to come to be . . . the divine mother of Ra, who
shines on the horizon...
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeithThe Crystal Links site mentions also how Nut is a Creatrix:
In the Book of the Dead, Nut was seen as a mother-figure to the sun god
Ra, who at sunrise was known as Khepera and took the form of a scarab
beetle (at noon he was Ra at his full strength, and at sunset he was
known as Tem (Temu, Atem) who was old and weakening):
- Homage to thee, O thou who hast come as Khepera, Khepera the creator
of the gods, Thou art seated on thy throne, thou risest up in the sky,
illumining thy mother [Nut], thou art seated on thy throne as the king
of the gods. [Thy] mother Nut stretcheth out her hands, and performeth
an act of homage to thee....
http://www.crystalinks.com/nut.html |
Meanwhile, Ra was also seen as a creator of everything, as these essays note:
Next, let's consider whether the Egyptians might have combined Nut and Ra into a concept of deity.
|
|
rakovsky
Knight
Joined: 07-Aug-2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 51
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Aug-2016 at 16:51 |
One of the obstacles to equating NT + Ra with NTR is that it combines deities, and not only that, but male and female ones. Is this a possibility? Consider that: 1. Hathor is equated with Nut and Neith as the celestial sky goddess. But "Hathor" simply means "House of Horus". The combining of the heavens with Horus is a key concept in Hathor, and therefore de facto in Nut. Consider also that a key Egyptian myth is also the combination of Nu and Ra - each day Nut, the heavens, swallows Ra and gives him rebirth each day. During that time, Ra travels inside Ra, making her de facto his house. 2. Egyptians had a practice of combining gods. So Amen + Ra = Amen Ra. Ra + Horus = Ra-Horakhty. 3. Egyptians could think in terms of androgynous gods that were both male and female. So Neith was sometimes written in hieroglyphics as a producing phallus, referring to her status as a creator. See: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/nit.htm#ixzz4FaInumGF4. The Hindu Shatkona is a divine symbol of the combination of the male and female deities that creates life. One triangle is the male god Shiva or else the Cosmic Man Purusha and the other triangle is Shakti, the mother goddess. One theory is that the Ankh is similar - a symbol of life representing both female and male parts, with the O being a womb and the t being a phallus or other male symbol. 5. The Sumerians and Babylonians called the gods the "Anunaki". They were the offspring of the gods "An"/"Anu" and "Ki". Kerry Barger writes in The True Story of Noah,
The Sumerian term for universe is An-Ki, which translates as "heaven-earth". Air, wind, sotrms, and the breath of the gods was called Lil and existed between the earth and the heavens. ... The primeval sea beyond the heavens, the Abzu (abyss or cosmic waters) gave birth to all life, including the Anunnaki (which literally translates as the offspring of Heaven and Earth). |
The Encyclopedic Dictionary of Religion, Vol. 1 defines Anunnaki this way:
"Term which possibly means An's (and Ki's) offspring, the princely ones, used in especially Sumerian texts as a general word for the gods, in particular the early gods, who were born first and were not differentiated with individual names. The Skygod An is described as the king of the Anunnaki." |
This last part reminds me of the importance of kingship for the quintessential deity, as the Dingir sign specifically referred to An. It also reminds us of how Ra was seen as the king of the gods in Egypt. In Egypt, the gods were the offspring of Nut and Ra and were called the Neteru. Just as the offspring of An and Ki were the Anunaki, could it be that the offspring of the combination of Nut and Ra are called Neteru for a similar phonetic reason?
What do you think about my theory that NTR = Nut + Ra?
|
|
medenaywe
AE Moderator
Master of Meanings
Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 06:54 |
What do you think about: Maternal=Sanctification-organisational=structural=constitutional-civilization dream=romance= fantasy-imagination-invention is sprung =issued=edited-grown-moved by ntr. Maternal=Sanctification-organisational =structural =constitutional-civilization dream=romance=fantasy springs=issues=edits-grows-moves ntr.
Edited by medenaywe - 08-Aug-2016 at 23:42
|
|
rakovsky
Knight
Joined: 07-Aug-2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 51
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 18:16 |
Hello, Medenaywe. I think you are using humor, suggesting that I am relying on too weak a connection between words. The meaning of NTR in its origins is very interesting to me because Egyptian civilization and religion is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, we have remaining in detailed literature, like the pyramid texts. They were written on the walls of the pyramids over 4000 years ago. I think it's neat.
Edited by rakovsky - 08-Aug-2016 at 18:17
|
|
rakovsky
Knight
Joined: 07-Aug-2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 51
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 18:18 |
Looks like they let you vote more than once here on the same poll. Oh well.
|
|
red clay
Administrator
Tomato Master Emeritus
Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 18:42 |
Originally posted by rakovsky
Looks like they let you vote more than once here on the same poll. Oh well.
|
No, you cannot vote more than once. However, you don't have to post in order to vote.
So, 3 votes only 2 posters.
|
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
|
|
red clay
Administrator
Tomato Master Emeritus
Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 18:50 |
Were you aware that the Hopi had protectors they called the Annunaki. In their language Annu means Ant and Naki means friend, Ant Friends.
|
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
|
|
medenaywe
AE Moderator
Master of Meanings
Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 23:44 |
Egyptians spoke like that Rakovsky in 196 B.C.They spoke with language where voices&syllables were words!
Edited by medenaywe - 08-Aug-2016 at 23:44
|
|
rakovsky
Knight
Joined: 07-Aug-2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 51
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 00:44 |
Originally posted by red clay
Originally posted by rakovsky
Looks like they let you vote more than once here on the same poll. Oh well.
|
No, you cannot vote more than once. However, you don't have to post in order to vote.
So, 3 votes only 2 posters. |
Please check the poll results again, Red Clay.
Edited by rakovsky - 09-Aug-2016 at 00:45
|
|
rakovsky
Knight
Joined: 07-Aug-2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 51
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 00:55 |
Originally posted by red clay
In their language Annu means Ant and Naki means friend, Ant Friends. | Red Clay,That sounds neat, but would you be able to confirm that with a scholarly source? I looked up person and people in a Hopi dictionary, and all I found was that person is " himösino"
|
|
rakovsky
Knight
Joined: 07-Aug-2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 51
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 00:57 |
|
|
medenaywe
AE Moderator
Master of Meanings
Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 01:05 |
Read Origins of Language better!Be persistent and more it comes it is better.How word=sentence sounds is the rule:
|
|
red clay
Administrator
Tomato Master Emeritus
Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 09:34 |
Originally posted by rakovsky
Originally posted by red clay
In their language Annu means Ant and Naki means friend, Ant Friends. | Red Clay,That sounds neat, but would you be able to confirm that with a scholarly source?I looked up person and people in a Hopi dictionary, and all I found was that person is "<strong =" phr">himösino" |
I probably could, if I had time. However I thought that was a common historical fact.
|
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
|
|
red clay
Administrator
Tomato Master Emeritus
Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 12:00 |
On the subject of the poll, it's never happened before. I'm looking for a glitch now.
Our software is old and creaky, glitches are not unexpected.
|
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
|
|
red clay
Administrator
Tomato Master Emeritus
Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 12:05 |
The Hopi legends state that the "ant people" came and took them underground to survive some global disaster.
If you need further info, google it. This isn't new or unknown folklore.
|
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
|
|
rakovsky
Knight
Joined: 07-Aug-2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 51
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 14:34 |
Originally posted by red clay
The Hopi legends state that the "ant people" came and took them underground to survive some global disaster.
If you need further info, google it. This isn't new or unknown folklore. |
Red Clay, I googled it and found that Hopi legends talk about the Ant People helping them. What I didn't find though is a claim in an academic scholarly authoritative source (eg. peer reviewed journal, dictionary, or for that matter Hopi website) saying that Ant People = "Annunaki" in Hopi. I did find New Age-type website claiming that, and even one website claiming that the Hopi word was Anasazi (a word that actually means enemies' ancestors).
|
|
Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 16:21 |
http://www.hopi-nsn.gov/
Under 'Contact'.. direct your research thru the Office of the Chairman and or Director of Education for additional information..sources..links that verify this well known traditional cultural identification,
|
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
|
|
Arthur-Robin
General
Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 16:45 |
I don't think neter can be Nut + Ra. Not saying more on here but you [Rakovsly] can discuss it in p.m. or anywhere else if wish.
|
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
|
|
rakovsky
Knight
Joined: 07-Aug-2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 51
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 19:59 |
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin
I don't think neter can be Nut + Ra. Not saying more on here but you [Rakovsly] can discuss it in p.m. or anywhere else if wish.
|
Arthur, Don't feel bad about posting here or discussing with opposite POVs. I can see several different theories. Some I have come across among Egyptologists: NTR = birthing, giving life. (Like Natalis in Latin, or Nurture in English) NTR = Nature, element, principle (Like Natura in Latin) NTR = purifying (Like Natron in Latin and in Egyptian) NTR = something high up (like the "God most High" in the Old Testament) That NTR is related to the goddesses Nut("sky/heavens" that has the heavenly waters)/Nunet(heavenly "waters")/Neith(who is the unseen heavens and the heavenly waters) is my own theory. For example, the gods are often equated with the stars in Egyptian myths. And the stars themselves are celestial and heavenly. When the blessed dead die, they go to heaven and become "neteru" (gods, plural of NTRU). So this means they are heavenly too in a sense. Copts dropped the R in NTR and called it Noute, which reminds me of Nut (heavens, pronounced Newt). It's as if the R was not essential and they associated NTR most with Nut, the heavens. The best avenue for more exploration of the subject I see would be to see what words in the related Chadic/Cush-ite, and Berber languages have NTR, mean "God", or mean any of those five things and also have NT in them or mean "god".
Edited by rakovsky - 09-Aug-2016 at 20:00
|
|