Silla(新羅) connection to Jurchens
After Silla destroyed Goguryeo and expanded territory further north, some people of Silla moved to north which was old Goguryeo's area. After the collapse of Silla, some people of Silla escaped to Balhae. But, Balhae was collaped at Liao invasion again. They unified Jurchen tribes establishing Jin dynasty.
The originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person. His name was Hambo. The emperor of Jin dynasty was called a Silla person by Song Chinese who visited Jin in 1120s. Some history books say that the Jurchen King was a Silla person, others say that the originator of Jin was first from Goryeo[7]. It is because Silla was replaced by Goryeo. However, Chinese, Mongol, Korean, and Manchu history records are consistent impling that Jurchen kings are originally from Silla.
The name of the originator of Jin(金) is Hambo(函普). When he came first from Goryeo(高麗), his age was 60
金之始祖諱函普,初從高麗來,年已六十餘矣 (in 1st chapter of the history of Jin(金史) [3])
Not only the originator of Jin, but also Agolta (阿骨打), the founder of Jin dynasty, was called originally a person from Silla
Agolta (阿骨打) of the Jurchens declared to be the Emperor, ... He was originally a person of Silla (新羅人)
女真阿骨打稱帝,姓王名做旻,本新羅人,號完顏氏 (in 3 宣和遺事 (大宋宣和遺事)) [2]
Jurchen Agolta named the state Great Jin (大金) (... He is originally a person of Silla).
女真阿骨打稱帝國號大金(...本新羅人) (in《佛祖歷代通載》卷19)
There are lots of history records showing that the originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person (or from Goryeo)
The originator of Wonan family (Jin's royal family) is a person of Silla
完顏之始祖指蒲者,新羅人 (in 大宋遗民)
The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽)
金之始祖諱函普初從高麗來 ( in 大金國誌 written by Song Chinese)
The originator of Jin, Hambo was first from Goyreo.
金之始祖諱哈富(舊作函普)初從髙麗來 (in 三朝北盟會編 written by Song Chinese)
Mongol and Korean records are consistent showing that the originator and the king of Jin dynasty are Silla persons. Goryeo claimed that Jin dyansty was originally inside Goryeo and they were people of Goryeo, and Goryeo was the mother country of Jin dynasty
People of Jin was originally Pyungjoo people in our country Goyreo. Goryeo was a mother country of Jin.
金則本我國平州之人, 稱我爲父母之國, 尹灌築九城之地, 以先春嶺爲界, 終金之世, 兵不相加。(高麗史 written by Korean dynasty)
The king of Jurchens is originally a Silla person
其初酋長本新羅人 (in 金志 written by Mongols in Yuan dynasty)
Until when did the royal family of Jin dynasty know that they were from Silla? When Jurchens visited Goryeo, they said their country was originated from Goryeo.
My ancestors (我祖宗) originated from the High country (大邦: Goryeo).
我祖宗出自大邦 (from 高麗史13卷-世家13-睿宗1109, written by Korean in Goryeo)
When Jin dynasty invaded Song China, two Chinese emperors were captured as hostages in 1127. Song Chinese visited Jin dynasty to negotiate with Jin to find a way to get their emperors back in 1129. They recorded that the king of Jin dynasty (the second empeor of Jin) was a person of Silla. It shows that the royal family of Jurchen was called Silla people even after Jin dynasty was founded.
The king of the Jurchens is a person of Silla.
女真酋長乃新羅人 (in 松漠記聞 (洪皓, 宋), 1129, written by Song Chinese)
Korean connection to Manchus of Qing dynasty
Manchu Qing dynasty(1616-1912) is the successor of Jurchen's Jin dynasty (1115-1234) . Jurchens rebuilt Later Jin dynasty in 1616. They changed the country name to Qing (1636), and conquered China (1644), Mongolia (1697), Taiwan (1683), Tibet(1750), and Uyguru(1759). The royal family of Qing believed that they were descendents of Jin's royal family. Manchu people in Qing dynasty also knew that the originator of Jin dynasty was from Goryeo (or Silla). Qing government published their own history book, "The origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考)" in 1777. They worte that the originator of Jin dynasty was first from Goryeo in the book. Also, they wrote that the origin of the country name Jin (金) was from the surname of kings of Silla(新羅).
The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽)
金之始祖讳哈富(旧作函普)初从髙丽来 (in Chapter 7, The Origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考) [1] )
The name of Jin(金) was originated from the surname of Kings of Silla(新羅)
新罗王金姓则金之逺派 (in The Origin of Manchu [1])
Silla came to Wannan family. Silla kings' surname 金(Kim in Korean) inherited ten generations. So, Jin(金) came from Silla. There is no doubt that it became the country name.
"本自新羅來姓完顔氏 新羅王金姓 相傳數十世則金之自新羅來 無疑建國之名 "(in The Origin of Manchu [1])
Also, Qing emperors' surname was "愛新覺羅". Interestingly, it can be read as "love Silla (愛 新羅) and remember Silla (覺 新羅)". The surname "愛新覺羅" means gold(金) clan in Manchu pronunciation (Aisin Gioro). The surname Kim(金) of Silla kings means gold too. After the end of Qing dynasty, the descendents of royal family changed their surname to 金.
The Manchu royal family Aishin Giro (愛新覺羅) clan were people who lived in Odoli Castle which is in current Hoeryong (회령), North Hamgyong in North Korea where was part of Joseon dynasty since 14th century. They were a vassal tribe to Joseon dynasty, and they treated Joseon as a mother country. Nurhachi called Joseon dynasty "mother country" in the letter to Joseon showing willingness to help Joseon at the invasion of Japan in 16th century. The foundation story of Qing dynasty explains the birth place of Nurhachi, who was the founder of Qing, as the east of Baekdu Mountains which is current North Korea.
"There was a lake called Bulhūri at the foot of Bukūri Mountain, located to the east of the Baekdu Mountains. When three angels bathed in that lake, a magpie left a fruit on the youngest angel Fekulen's clothes. She ate the fruit and became pregnant. She mothered Bukūri Yongšon, the founder of Aisin Gioro. He was later welcomed by the people as the Beile. He settled at Odoli Castle on the Omohoi Plain and became the founder of the Manchu State."
Qing government announced the definition of Manchu and prohibited the term 'Jurchen' referring to them. The half of Manchu tribes were Korean tribes by the Qing's definition of Manchu.
Definition of Manchu from "The origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考)" [1]
Manchu Tribe 1: Suksin (肅愼, Jurchen), Buyeo(夫余, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 2: Yilou (挹娄, Ainu), Samhan(三韩, Korean), and Mulgil (勿吉, Jurchen)
Manchu Tribe 3: Baekje(百济, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 4: Silla(新羅, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 5: Malgal(靺鞨, Jurchen)
Manchu Tribe 6: Balhae(渤海, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 7: Wanan (完颜, Korean royal family and Jurchens), and GeonJu (建州, Jurchen)
Genetic analysis of Koreans and Manchus
According to genetic analysis using Y-chromosome, Manchus are closest to Koreans than any other ethnics in comparisons [5].
Y-chromosome analysis. Koreans are closet to Manchus. KOR(Korean), MAN(Manchu), KCN(Korean Chinese), NHN(North Chinese), JPN(Japanese). (From Katoh's paper 2005)
In this study, both Korean and Korean Chinese (ethnic Koreans living in China) are genetically closest to Manchus. Interestingly Manchus are genetically closer to Koreans than Mongols. it is consistent with the Qing's definition of Manchu tribes in which Korean tribes are majority. It is believed that the population of ethnic Koreans in Goguryeo and Balhae dynasty contributed to main Manchu population in Jin dynasty.
Northern Han Chinese were not as close to Manchu as the Koreans and Japanese are, but not as far away than the other ethnics. Current north China was traditional Altaic people's homeland, and Altaic people conquered and colonized China many times. Through history, Chinese were mixed with them . Khitan and Jurchen people governed Northern China during 10~12th century (Liao and Jin dynasty). Mongol and Manchu people governed whole China during 13~14th and 17~20th century (Yuan and Qing dynasty). There are many non-Han Chinese dynasties in Chinese history. Other studies show that genetic distance between Southern Han Chinese and Manchu is big.
click to see Altaic influence on Chinese
[1] Qing governement, "The origin of Manchu(滿洲源流考)", 1777, http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E6%BB%BF%E6%B4%B2%E6%BA%90%E6%B5%81%E8%80%83
[2] 大宋宣和遺事, http://open-lit.com/showlit.php?gbid=347&cid=1
[3] the history of Jin(金史), http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E9%87%91%E5%8F%B2/%E5%8D%B71
[4] Sin Chaeho, "Joseon Sanggosa", 1931, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon_Sanggosa
[5] Toru Katoh, et. al., "Genetic features of Mongolian ethnic groups revealed by Y-chromosomal analysis", **Gene**, Volume 346, 14 February 2005, Pages 63-70. web link
[6] Wontack Hong, "How Did the Rulers of the Jin and Qing Dynasties Trace Their Ancestors? The Manchu Origins", EAST ASIAN HISTORY: A KOREAN PERSPECTIVE Vol. 1. No. 2. 2005. 1. 1. http://www.upkorea.net/news/photo/4908-2-4504.pdf
[7] "Hanpu", wikipedia.org. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanpu
[8] Juha Janhunen, "Tracing Bear totemism in Northeast Asia", http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/publictn/acta/20/asi20-001-janhunen.pdf
[9] "The founder of Jin dynasty, Agolta was a descendent of Silla", History special, KBS, 2009, http://www.kbs.co.kr/1tv/sisa/historyspecial/view/vod/1605745_30885.html
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Posted: 16-Dec-2009 at 15:11
This topic title does not help any to build good discussion.
The Manchus conquered China and Korea both.
It collapsed Ming and then conquered Chosun.
Manchus conquered Chosun and made the King Injo knelt down in front of the Nurhazhi .
Machus did not have much affection to Korea , in fact they did not have much meaning on those history mentioned about the root of their founder.
The Koreans during the Chosun Era thought both people fundamentally different and distant , see Park Jowon's Yulha Diary.
Koreans thought they were closest people to Han Chinese after Ming and Manchus were less civilized Bavarians , Chosun was very ignorant of the sucessful Manchu Achivement during the Qing.
The passion and trend to study about the close relationship between Koreans and Manchu is very recent because Koreans need to fight against Chinese NE Project.
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Posted: 24-Dec-2009 at 22:03
All of you must realize China is Communist regime.
China Communist Government trying really hard to distort Korean History.
For example, Koreans need Chinese characters for daily usage. Koreans need Chinese food, Chinese Massage parlor etc.
Reality: Ko-Chosun ( Puyo Tribal established the kingdom in Center between Manchuria and North Korea.)
Korguryo Kingdom ( Puyo Tribal people estblished the kingdom in Manchuria)
Balhae Kingdom ( Koguryo and Puyo people established new Korean Kingdom in Manchuria and Siberia).
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Posted: 26-Dec-2009 at 04:47
Yes, Koreans need China, e.g. North Korea need China supply of fuels and food. South Korea needs Chinese market for its industries and Chinese agricultural products. That is why around 1 million S. Koreans stay in China presently for retirement, study, business etc.
Reality : Old Chosen were founded by Kiji from China, Wiman from Yan , China. Koguryo Kingdom was established by Buyeo people and Yeamak people from Eastern and North China so that they are sino rather than koreanic. Koguryo set up 5 capitals in total : the initial 3 were in China for more than 400 years the remaining 2 in Pyonyang area in present day North Korea for about 200 hundred years .Koguryo was a multi-ethnic kingdom which also included Hans and Malgal people. Bahlhae was established by a Malgal general who had been a subject of Koguryo. The name of Balhae was given by the Tang emperor - a subject state of Tang empire in legitimacy.
This topic title does not help any to build good
discussion.
The Manchus conquered China and Korea both.
It collapsed Ming and then conquered Chosun.
Actually Manchu attacked Korea first and made deal with Korea to support
their war campaigns for their conquest of Ming. Manchu invaded Korea
twice, this was first. Then after Ming disappeared, Manchu became
increasingly ruthless & demanding, then when Anti-Manchu faction in
Korea revolted against to Manchu's demands, Manchu invaded Korea for
second time.
Originally posted by Danny.T
Yes, Koreans need China, e.g. North Korea need China supply of fuels and food. South Korea needs Chinese market for its industries and Chinese agricultural products. That is why around 1 million S. Koreans stay in China presently for retirement, study, business etc.
Reality : Old Chosen were founded by Kiji from China, Wiman from Yan , China. Koguryo Kingdom was established by Buyeo people and Yeamak people from Eastern and North China so that they are sino rather than koreanic. Koguryo set up 5 capitals in total : the initial 3 were in China for more than 400 years the remaining 2 in Pyonyang area in present day North Korea for about 200 hundred years .Koguryo was a multi-ethnic kingdom which also included Hans and Malgal people. Bahlhae was established by a Malgal general who had been a subject of Koguryo. The name of Balhae was given by the Tang emperor - a subject state of Tang empire in legitimacy.
1. Current North/South Korea relation with China is off topic. China also needs Korea for investment and trades.
2. With regards to Kija and Wiman is still regarded as controversial topics for both Chinese & Korean scholars. According to Korean scholars, this two historic figures might have been fabricated by Japanese during 1920s.
3. Goguryeo never built multi-ethnic Kingdom, Malgal was just another nomads were allowed to stay within the boarder by Koreans. In fact Malgal tribes were every where in Korea. Han Chinese were killed by Goguryeo.
4. Balhae founder was from Gogureyo, he was Gogureyo general and Balhae people distinguish themselves from Malgal. Malgal is aka Magyars in Hungary. Also, Balhae frequently went wars with Tang. I'm sad to see Southern Chinese today fabricates NE Asian history.
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Posted: 06-Feb-2010 at 00:03
@SNK_1408 1. O.K. yr. comment 1, is irrelevant to you. 2. Kija and Wiman were not fabrications in the 1920s by the Japanese, but their history in Chinese historical books are much more than that. In 1973 in Yan Mountain area excavation of bronze vast for use in ritual to alot land and title with inscription of Ki duchy in N.E. China. Kija temples were found in Korea even before 1920. One Kija temple were tolled down in North Korea in the fifties last century. 3. Koguryo was multi-ethnic esp. in its early years. The Sui soldiers caught in battles became POWs. When Tang court sent officials there to take back corpses/ coffins of Sui soldiers , they found a lot of Hans left behind to became Koguryo citizens. 4. Balhae founder was not Koguryo but of Malgal stock. Balhae seldom went to war with Tang I don't recall any.
As a South Chinese I am proud of my heritage as many original, centuries old culture / heritage are still retained in mountains and hill tribes in the South. Our languages retain the Tang/ Han language flavor. The Tang poetry is best to be recited in Cantonese or Minnam etc. Even Korean/Japanese languages has got some Cantonese flavor.
@SNK_1408 2. Kija and Wiman were not fabrications in the 1920s by the Japanese, but their history in Chinese historical books are much more than that. In 1973 in Yan Mountain area excavation of bronze vast for use in ritual to alot land and title with inscription of Ki duchy in N.E. China. Kija temples were found in Korea even before 1920. One Kija temple were tolled down in North Korea in the fifties last century. 3. Koguryo was multi-ethnic esp. in its early years. The Sui soldiers caught in battles became POWs. When Tang court sent officials there to take back corpses/ coffins of Sui soldiers , they found a lot of Hans left behind to became Koguryo citizens. 4. Balhae founder was not Koguryo but of Malgal stock. Balhae seldom went to war with Tang I don't recall any.
As a South Chinese I am proud of my heritage as many original, centuries old culture / heritage are still retained in mountains and hill tribes in the South. Our languages retain the Tang/ Han language flavor. The Tang poetry is best to be recited in Cantonese or Minnam etc. Even Korean/Japanese languages has got some Cantonese flavor.
1. There could be confusion over Kija & Wiman, but bottom line is both became rulers of ancient Korean states not Chinese states. Yan State is aka Eun-nara, most scholars acknowledge Yan state was possibly mixed heritage states this is because same sets of archeological evidences can be trace all over Korean peninsula too, meaning they shared close relationship. Anything beyond this scholars still don't know.
2. Koguryo was hardly any multi-ethnic state like of these large Chinese empires. Koguryo was founded by five clans of mostly ancient Korean tribes (2 clans of Buyeo, 1 clan of Yemaek, 2 clans of Samhan). Kogureyo's golden crowns resembled similar designs to Baekje & Silla golden crowns.
3. LoL, Balhea's founder was Koguryeo origin, he even said his kingdom is based from Koguryeo and his father and himself was ex-Koguryeo generals. There is little trace of Malgal ran the Balhae. After the fall of Balhae to Khitans, last major survivals went over to Koryo Kingdom.
4. I''m not too sure about Cantonese influence in Korea/Japan, but Korea & Japan had interaction long before Cantonese became colonized by Northern Chinese, it was Han Dynasty had influence in Korea/Japan when Gojoseon states was destroyed by Han Dynasty. Tang Dynasty's influence came much later.
5. Southern Chinese are more belonged to Viet/Thai origin which both people were originated from Canton region long before the arrival of Chinese from Yellow river. Basically Yangtze river delta was colonized by Yellow river Chinese.
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Posted: 16-Feb-2010 at 18:06
A Question : Where is Yan State? Is it in Korea Peninsula or in China Teritory? If in China, how could you say that they were a Korean State? Or are you claiming that the part of chinese teritory as Korean's?
The originator of Jin(金, Kim) dyansty was a Korean who name was Kim Ham-bo.
Royal family of Silla (Korean dynasty) moved to northern Korean penninsular and founded Jin dynasty with Jurchens (AD 1068). They occupied north China and moved capital to Beijing. This country was destroyed by Mongol's Chingis Khan in 1234.
But, their descendents founded Later Jin(金, Kim) dynasty again in 1616 (changed to Qing(淸) later) and conquered China in 1644. They governed and colonized China until Chinese got independence in 1912.
Its hilarious how you Koreans don't know jack about the people's history you try to steal.
When the Qing invaded and conquered China, they had to do it by giving over Manchu princesses to Han Chinese Generals and Manchu women to Han Chinese soldiers to get them to defect.
The Jurchen royal family named Wanyan that ruled the Jin dynasty is NOT related to the Aisin Gioro royal family that ruled the Later Jin/Qing dynasty.
Wanyan and Aisin Gioro are completely unrelated. There was even a separate Wanyan clan during the Qing and they were not part of Aisin Gioro.
Aisin Gioro claimed descent from Bukuri Yongson whom they claim was born to a virgin who ate a berry at Mount Changbai. Totally unrelated to the Wanyan who claim descent from Hanpu.
Wanyan is not of Korean origin. Hanpu, the founder of the Wanyan, was an ethnic Mohe who was born in or near Goryeo territory. The History of Jin says he was a Mohe born in Goryeo (Korea), it doesn't say he was an ethnic Korean.
A black person born in Korea is not an ethnic Korean. A Mohe born in Korea like Hanpu is not a Korean either.
The belief that Hanpu and his brothers originated within the lands of the Korean Peninsula is rooted in a direct reading of the narrative given in the Jinshi . However, some Jurchen scholars suggest that Hanp u and his brothers hailed from a Jurchen tribe that was merel y subject to rule from the peninsula. Still others believe that Hanpu and his brothers never lived within the penin sula and instead were from a family of the Changbai Mountain Jurchens ( Changbai shan 長白山 ) who were known to the state of Goryeo as the "Eas tern Jurchen."
Cerberus explained on Historum how Hanpu was not a Korean to you liars.
Old February 27th, 2015, 06:10 PM #42
Cerberus
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This topic has been dealt with on Historum before and you are advised to look up the thread. The Wanyan clan's legend asserts that one of their ancestors, Hanpu, came from Silla/Goryeo, but simultaneously indicates that they were Mohe, a Tungusic group that, according to records, spoke a unique language that was mutually unintelligible with that of Goguryeo.
The very first line of the Jinshi states:
"金之先,出靺鞨氏。"
Trans.: The ancestor of the Jin came from the Mohe.
"黑水靺鞨居古肅慎地 ... 金國之所起焉。"
Trans.: the Heishui Mohe lived in the ancient land of the Sushen. The Jin began here.
It is widely accepted that the Jurchens came from the Heishui Mohe, who had earlier submitted to Goguryeo as vassals when Goguryeo conquered their lands.
《金史·高丽传》states: “唐初,有粟末、黑水两部,皆臣属于高丽。”
Trans.: At the beginning of the Tang, the Sumo and Heishui tribes were subjects of Goguryeo.
《赞》states: “金人本出之附于高丽者”
Trans.: the Jin came from tribes attached to Goguryeo.
The information above matches well with the Heishu and Sumo Mohe, who were also described as being 附于 - attached - to Goguryeo, rather than being Goguryeo clans. Given the fact that the Hanpu story is a legend with obviously legendary archetypes involving a miraculous birth - ie via a 60-year old woman - and a lawbringer, the mainstream view among Western historians has been to regard the Hanpu narrative as an indicator of the Wanyan's - and the Heishui Mohe's - memory of political relations with Goguryeo, which was conflated with Silla/Goryeo due to those states' widely advertised succession to Goguryeo political authority.
Chinese historians have also observed that "Hanpu" was called Wanyan Hanpu even before he "left" Silla/Goryeo, which debunks the idea that he was surnamed Kim before he joined the Wanyan, and is further support for him being a Mohe figure.
The bottom line is that there is no evidence Hanpu was a living person - he was never recorded in any texts before the Jin, despite having lived centuries earlier - as opposed to a symbolic clan-father created by the Wanyan to try and coopt the political legacy of Goguryeo. But even in the event that he was a living person, there is evidence indicating that he was from a Mohe clan living in/around Korea. The Wanyan clan was not a "Korean" clan when it founded the Jin.
Your willful ignorance of Chinese sources is highly problematic when the historical subjects you're dealing with were recorded solely in Chinese - and by writers who based their works mainly on Chinese records. But not knowing Chinese is forgivable; what's not forgivable is not even bothering to read the English language literature and choosing, instead, to regurgitate information you found on obviously less-than-academic blogs/forums.
Nurhaci's ancestor, Menggetimur, who was originally a vassal to the Joseon, backstabbed the Joseon and defected to the Ming dynasty after Joseon tried to turn him against China.
Nurhaci, the Manchu leader whom you claimed said that Manchus were related to Silla Koreans, said no such thing. In fact, he said the opposite, claiming that Han Chinese and Koreans were closer to each other in culture, "way of life", and clothing, than to Manchus. Nurhaci was a political opportunist who shifted from claiming similarities with Mongols, to pointing out the egregious differences between Mongol nonadism and Manchu sedentart farming
Only the speech of the two nations of Chinese and Koreans is different; they are alike in the clothes they wear and in their way of life.
Whats more, the Jurchen-Manchus deliberately set themselves apart from Koreans, refusing to eat dogs like Koreans. The Jurchens viewed Korean dog eating as disgusting and were horrified at the practice.
(4)Customs and Habits
The customs and habits of the Jurchens in the Ming era were recorded in detail in the Korean historical materials.
a. The Ming era Jurchens awed dogs, abstained from killing and eating dogs and clothing the dog skin. They regarded the Koreans holding the dog skin as the utmost evil. According to the historical documents, the Mohes did not awe the dogs, which indicated that dog-awing was a subsequent custom which is still kept in Manchus.
http://gbtimes.com/life/manchu-modern-china
Another difference with other Chinese ethnic group is that the Manchu dont eat dog meat. Traditionally, dogs have always been highly regarded by the Manchu, since they were useful assistants in farming and horse breeding. Besides this cultural fact, not eating dog is also a way for them to distinguish themselves from the the neighbouring Koreans, who eat dog meat.
Koreans tried pacifying the Jurchen by giving them Korean women, but the Jurchen cntinued to revolt and fight the Koreans.
Thousands of Korean women were deliberately raped by the Manchus during their invasion of Korea, in order to humiliate the Koreans. The Korean King was forced to prostrate himself before the Manchu ruler.
Hong Taiji changed the name of Jurchens to Manchus, because firstly, Jurchen carried a conatation of referring to the "dependent class" (the class of freed slaves), secondly, the people known as Jurchen had been loyal subjects to the Ming for hundreds of years, and Hong Taiji wanted to erase the stigma.
All of you must realize China is Communist regime.
China Communist Government trying really hard to distort Korean History.
For example, Koreans need Chinese characters for daily usage. Koreans need Chinese food, Chinese Massage parlor etc.
Reality: Ko-Chosun ( Puyo Tribal established the kingdom in Center between Manchuria and North Korea.)
Korguryo Kingdom ( Puyo Tribal people estblished the kingdom in Manchuria)
Balhae Kingdom ( Koguryo and Puyo people established new Korean Kingdom in Manchuria and Siberia).
婦揚人,濃抹麗妝,鮮衣華飾,指揮言笑。 this woman was from Yangzhou, with thick make-up and gaudily dressed and ornamented; she spoke, laughed and gestured.
欣然有得色,每遇好物,即向卒乞取,曲盡媚態,不以為恥; She was happy and pleased with herself, and whenever the soldiers came across a fine item, she would immediately beg them for it, using to the utmost a charming attitude, without any shame;
予恨不能奪卒之刀,斷此淫孽。 I was desperate to grab one of the soldier’s blades and sever this wanton good-for-nothing.
卒嘗謂人曰:“我輩徵高麗,擄婦女數万人,無一失節者,何堂堂中國,無恥至此?” One of the soldiers at one point remarked on her saying: “We campaigned in Korea and captured tens of thousands of women, but not one of them lost her chastity; how is it that the magnificent China is without any sense of shame?”
嗚呼,此中國之所以亂也。 Alas, this is why China has been thrown into disorder.
Moreover, Common Korean does not claim manchus were Korean. Korean and Manchus are so different each others,
It is ridiculous that Chinese dare to tell women to Korean
Historically, Chinese women were sold by their foreign masters and they were given to the products.
For example, Chinese women, as high born women; Princess were dedicated by neighbors including their maids, weavers, prostitutions, cookers, and young women.
When the Mongolsinvaded and conquered Chinaduring the thirteenth century, many Chinesewere enslaved in the process
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yel%C3%BC_Chucai
He did his best to convince the Mongols to tax rather than slaughter conquered peoples. In Grousset's Empire of the steppes,it is reported that Ögedeiwould tease him, saying "Are you going to weep for the people again?". The wise chancellor had great words to temper the barbaric leanings of Mongol methodology
Mongol society in China had four classes. A small number of Mongols was the privileged group, followed by the special status of Turks, Muslims, and other non-Chinese; northern Chinese ranked third, and the multitudinous southern Chinese were fourth, above only a considerable number of slaves. Mongols and other foreigners (mostly from Persia) replaced most of the Confucian aristocrats in government, and the civil service exams were abolished. Many Chinese intellectuals had been made slaves until the Mongols realized they could be useful in their administration. The Mongols then decided to staff each office with quotas of northern Chinese, southern Chinese, and foreigners
Rulers of Yuan dynasty carried out feudalism and slavery system that are typically symbol of slavery society. In Yuan, there were commonly slaves everywhere. This means that the society of Yuan founded on slavery. Everyone were able to buy and sell slaves in the market. Middle-level government officials normally had more than 100 slaves. Some rich slavery-owners ordinary had a thousand or ten thousand of slaves. Seven thousand of slaves were owned by Yahama 阿合马, who is a favorite retainer of khubilai Khan. Slaves had no freedom and were reckon to be private property. Slave also had right to pay tax to the Mongolian government. Slave-masters randomly traded and donated their slaves to another people and their relatives. If slavery-owner killed a sinless slave, He had punishment of flogging 87 times. Someone, not owners got 107 times. This judgement was same with case of illegal slaughtering a cow or horse. Yuan government made common chinese farmers as slave class.
Yuan dynasty declared inequable race policy each people under role of Mongolia as well as plainly discrimination of same race. North chinese were in third class of Mongolian caste system. They were called Han-chinese in the history. But history of chinese under Mongolian empire remained behind-stories. How did mongolian rule on chinese? Mongolian families were bestowed all chinese village for governing them besides military abilities and a jail to oppress chinese. If chinese women got married, they should sleep with their mongolian masters for 3days. In a few word, Mongolian has the right of first night. In case of elderly chinese, 60 years-old chinese might go to the field, they tended to wait the comb calling 砖打墓 until the their death. As seeing this, This time was the darkest and the most shameful period to chinese.
This period was not glorious and powerful chinese history on the Eurasia unlike Some shameless chinese having name ‘爱国’have pride about Mongolian order.
In detailed aspect of governmental actions, the order of Yuan was perfectly dark age. Mongolian rulers performed the law that Five chinese households had only 1 knife in order to prevent uprising of chinese. Above all, the knife might be in home of mongolian masters. Under agreement of mongolian masters, Chinese could fire and cook foods, then Chinese customly called mongolian male masters as “老灶爷” and female as “老灶奶”. These mongolian masters reported situations of their village to prefecture officers. Chinese dedicated delicious foods to their mongolian masters on December 23th of the lunar calendar. This custom was called “祭灶”.
If you have a chance to see the picture about “老灶爷” and “老灶奶” in rural areas of China, You will check out these features wearing Mongolian dress in the picture.
元朝对汉民族的残暴统治,甚至延伸到了床头。在蒙古人征服时期,汉人和其他各少数民族百姓里每家新媳妇的头一夜是一定要给蒙古保长过的,因为他们是在蒙元征服王朝中,是最下等的阶层,可以任人使唤欺躏。由于屈辱的初夜权,所以当时的汉人结婚后都是把第一胎摔死,这就是摔死第一胎的来历,我们的祖先就是用这么无奈,但又坚决的方法来维持着血统的纯净。 Cruel rule of Mongolian even stretched to chinese’s bedroom. the first night of chinese and the minority bribes should be with Mongolian. By this humiliating the right of first night, Chinese husbands necessary had an abortion when their wife had elderist son. This caused the custom aborting the first child among chinese. It could’t helped any choices to chinese at the time, They preserved pure blood such as the tough way like abortion.
Historically, Chinese women slave history keep in now. Many chinese women and prostitute are working in the world. Chinese women are in Korean as prostitute. That numbers is 500,000. Korean immigration office kick out a lot chinese women in every years
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Posted: 31-Jul-2015 at 10:13
Nope. better than that... this individual is banned. For a violation of the Coc.
Ref.
''Amended: ''to include single word-names and numbers or letters. Or a variation of the same.''
eg. Mary123.
As most of these combinations are also well known search engine bots; origination from known hazardous IP locations..or also well known for spambots-trolling and id theft.
These include IP's being used by violators of the Coc ref above...from the PRC and or UK..and elsewhere. ''
Not to mention this is a carryover fight from another forum that was stopped. Brought here....and an attempted renewal occurred....on the back of a six year old thread. And...trolling.
Thread locked.
Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 31-Jul-2015 at 10:24
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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