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R_AK47
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Topic: Who is the greatest military leader of the medieval period? Posted: 18-May-2006 at 15:37 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
Originally posted by R_AK47
Originally posted by Constantine XI
Originally posted by R_AK47
That is regrettable. However, it was the Turks that destroyed the great statue of Justinian on horseback that used to be located outside Hagia Sophia. |
I have never heard a direct reference of the statue of Justinian being destroyed by the Turks, where is your reference for this.
I read Choniates' work a while ago and he gives a disturbingly long and detailed list of the fine workmanship the crusaders melted down to raise some cash. It wasn't regrettable, it was an outrage and a tragedy for civilization. No better than a pack of glorified thugs and thieves were those men who took the cross.
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I have no reference regarding Turkish destruction of the statue, but we know that it was still standing when Constantinople fell in 1453 (many mistakenly believed it to be a statue of Constantine I). We also know that the statue is no longer there or anywhere else that we know of. Since the Turks controlled the city after 1453, when the statue was last recoreded, and have controlled it to the present day, they must be responsible for whatever happened to it. I presume they therefore destroyed this great, ancient piece of artwork, along with many other items (you should read what they did when they entered the Chora Church after entering the city, it is also very disturbing). |
We don't all know that the statue was still standing in 1453, I have never read that written anywhere. I have, however, read an eyewitness account of it still standing in 1204. This is given in the account of Robert of Clari, an ordinary soldier in the crusder host. He incorrectly calls it the "state of Heraclius", though it was actually that of Justinian. After that I do not see it mentioned, and given Nicetas Choniates account I am prepared to accept that the statues of Justinian went the way of all the other statues and were melted down by the rapacious crusders. They even took copper from the roof of the Haghia Sophia to be melted down. They left the city a ruin of itself and pathetically impoverished, why should we assume without evidence they would not do the same to Justinian's statues what they did to virtually everything else?
If you can provide an actual source with a reliable author which can prove Justinian's statues were still standing in 1453, then do so.
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You seem to have an extreme bias against crusaders. If I were to state that muslim Turks were nothing more than a "pack of glorified thugs and thieves", as you state crusaders were, you would be warning or banning me. The moderation of this forum needs to be less biased and more even handed. At any rate, here is the source you requested regarding Justinian's statue:
As you can see, the it was the Turks who destroyed the statue, melting it down and making a cannon out of it. It was not the crusaders, whom you seem quick to blame for many things. The crusaders had nothing to do with the destruction of this monument. At least they respected it and left it in place.
EDIT: According to this link, Mehmet like to collect Christian Holy Relics. I wonder what his purpose for that was, what relics he collected, and what eventually became of them?
Edited by R_AK47 - 18-May-2006 at 16:10
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Sherzod
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Posted: 19-May-2006 at 12:23 |
With no doubt - Amir Temur, or how you call him Tamerlane!
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"Power is in fairness...!" - Amir Temur (1336-1405)
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Posted: 19-May-2006 at 13:01 |
why isnt joan of the arc in there
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 00:59 |
Originally posted by R_AK47
You seem to have an extreme bias against crusaders. If I were to
state that muslim Turks were nothing more than a "pack of glorified
thugs and thieves", as you state crusaders were, you would be warning
or banning me. The moderation of this forum needs to be less biased
and more even handed. At any rate, here is the source you requested
regarding Justinian's statue:
As you can see, the it was the Turks who destroyed the statue,
melting it down and making a cannon out of it. It was not the
crusaders, whom you seem quick to blame for many things. The crusaders
had nothing to do with the destruction of this monument. At least they
respected it and left it in place.
EDIT: According to this link, Mehmet like to collect Christian
Holy Relics. I wonder what his purpose for that was, what relics he
collected, and what eventually became of them?
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Firstly, thanks for the link.
Secondly, I hardly think you are in a position to accuse other members
of bias. Your own Islamophobic prejudice permeated nearly every thread
so far it is able to. You instantly leap to conclusions that the
Christian forces were always morally better than Islamic ones, you
never weigh evidence, you never give credit to the other side where it
is due.......... Honestly now, when I say the crusaders were brutes it
is justified by a tonne of historical evidence. Even the Byzantines
thought the Muslims were better, as demonstrated by the quote from
Nicetas Choniates. But as usual you ignore anything that runs contrary
to your narrow hate for the non-Christian world, you equate the virtual
destruction of an entire city by the crusaders with the destruction of
one statue by the Turks.
I will start taking you seriously when you start examining history with
the impartial qualities of a proper historian. As for complaining about
moderating standards, that criticism is something I would expect from
someone who is silly and childish enough to earn themselves a warning
over some pseudo-medieval fantasy trolling about relics.
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TEMPLARIO
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Posted: 23-May-2006 at 12:19 |
Edit:
Removed a pasted article from the Spanish wikipedia about Salah al Din.
Here is the English Version:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin
Please do not simply paste atricles and especially not in another language than English.
thanks!
Edited by Komnenos - 23-May-2006 at 12:57
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"Non Nobis Domine, Non Nobis, Sed Nomini Tuo Da Gloriam"
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R_AK47
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Posted: 29-May-2006 at 22:32 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
Originally posted by R_AK47
You seem to have an extreme bias against crusaders. If I were to state that muslim Turks were nothing more than a "pack of glorified thugs and thieves", as you state crusaders were, you would be warning or banning me. The moderation of this forum needs to be less biased and more even handed. At any rate, here is the source you requested regarding Justinian's statue:
As you can see, the it was the Turks who destroyed the statue, melting it down and making a cannon out of it. It was not the crusaders, whom you seem quick to blame for many things. The crusaders had nothing to do with the destruction of this monument. At least they respected it and left it in place.
EDIT: According to this link, Mehmet like to collect Christian Holy Relics. I wonder what his purpose for that was, what relics he collected, and what eventually became of them?
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Firstly, thanks for the link.
Secondly, I hardly think you are in a position to accuse other members of bias. Your own Islamophobic prejudice permeated nearly every thread so far it is able to. You instantly leap to conclusions that the Christian forces were always morally better than Islamic ones, you never weigh evidence, you never give credit to the other side where it is due.......... Honestly now, when I say the crusaders were brutes it is justified by a tonne of historical evidence. Even the Byzantines thought the Muslims were better, as demonstrated by the quote from Nicetas Choniates. But as usual you ignore anything that runs contrary to your narrow hate for the non-Christian world, you equate the virtual destruction of an entire city by the crusaders with the destruction of one statue by the Turks.
I will start taking you seriously when you start examining history with the impartial qualities of a proper historian. As for complaining about moderating standards, that criticism is something I would expect from someone who is silly and childish enough to earn themselves a warning over some pseudo-medieval fantasy trolling about relics.
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You have also lept to some conclusions as well. After all, it was you who lept to the conclusion that crusaders destroyed the statue of Justinian, with no sources to back up the statement. Not a very impartial examination of the situation. As far as my comment on Mehmet and his relics, that was a serious question regarding information that I read within the information posted on the above link. However, I shall repost that question within the "Holy Relics" thread within this forum as that is probably where the question truly belongs.
EDIT: I see that Genghis Khan is now finally tied with Attila the Hun (21 vs. 21).
Edited by R_AK47 - 29-May-2006 at 22:43
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InTheFade
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Posted: 27-Jul-2010 at 01:31 |
Frederick II of Hohenstaufen Alexander Nevsky Simeon I the Great Tariq ibn Ziyad
Edited by InTheFade - 27-Jul-2010 at 01:35
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DreamWeaver
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Posted: 27-Jul-2010 at 04:42 |
I wouldnt really have put Saladin on there, a much better 'politician' than an actual general. Likewise I must disagree with you IntheFade, about Frederick II. As much as I find him an intriguing character, I dont think he really cuts it as a general.
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Pleurifons
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Posted: 11-Sep-2010 at 14:19 |
Well have read all of the names posted so far, but the one special to me was:
William Marshall; a knight of the Medieval era. It was said the Goerge Washington and Windton Churchill were related to him.
He was not mentioned as one whom was poor but of such high standard I can't see WHO would disregard him. He was responsible for the Magna Carta as a forgotten hero.
He was brave and had what precious few men had in that time... CLASS. Something that showed when a mounted gentileman rode into the townships, many would throw roses at a fox such as that!@#! *It's in this gentileman whom I cast my handkerchief to, in this one as a gr.grand daughter, niece, and descendant of a few defenders of that challenging era.
Pleurifons
`'~^0^~'`
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Blood and Suicide
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Posted: 12-Sep-2010 at 06:30 |
nationalism not do, please Belisarius greatest commander is one, but the greatest Genghis Khan is reminding required empire itself has created the world's fourth one conquered 34 million square kilometers over an area now, and beat most commander's defeat, have I told the truth should
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DO NOT SCORN A WEAK CUB HE MAY BECOME THE BRUTAL TIGER
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sashikaran
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Posted: 22-Sep-2010 at 08:59 |
How about vikramaditya??
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Posted: 22-Mar-2013 at 06:45 |
Why not Tran Hung Dao? He defeated Mongol, stopped The strongest army conquert to the south and Australia. A great general is not who got more land, got more army. But the one who could defeat other generals. So I vote for Tran Hung Dao
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 22-Mar-2013 at 11:04 |
Tran was a warrior-Prince indeed.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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baydlag
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Posted: 28-Jul-2013 at 21:01 |
This sort of question is always hard to compare. Every war leaders and army have different situation. But this list shouldn't contain Asian leaders. In medieval time Asian generals were far better than western ones.
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 29-Jul-2013 at 01:52 |
of course it should continue Asians....were they not real..were they not note worthy? I agree tis contextual....and in my perhaps final days as one who knows wtf that means I applaud your astute recognition of the fact.
be well out on your steppes.
God..rides with the lonely.
CV
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Mountain Man
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Posted: 29-Jul-2013 at 10:41 |
Genghis Khan. He conquered vast territories and held together the largest empire since Rome.
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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opuslola
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Posted: 26-Feb-2014 at 19:29 |
How about Belisarius? Boy did he get rewarded? No! He was left destitute according to some sources. But sources are where you find them, if you really can find reliable sources!
Ron
Edited by opuslola - 26-Feb-2014 at 19:34
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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Mosquito
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Posted: 28-Feb-2014 at 14:42 |
Most of you probably have never heard about this king but it was one of the most sucessful kings of medieval times. Bolesław the Brave from Poland. He spent all his reign on wars with neighbours, invading all of them, defeating Holy Roman Empire, Bohemia and Kiev Rus.
Boleslav the Brave
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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