Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Boxer Rebellion Posted: 04-Oct-2011 at 19:32 |
For those interested in basic research and analysis..see: http://www.russojapanesewar.com/boxers.html
|
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Oct-2011 at 20:56 |
Were the rebels really crazy enough to attack armed troops with their bare hands? Even a kung-fu master wouldn't be much of a match for a bolt-action rifle
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Oct-2011 at 00:19 |
Well that is the allegation. As to their sanity in doing so? One can alone wonder.
|
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
|
|
Logicv
Janissary
Joined: 15-Aug-2011
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Dec-2011 at 20:27 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
Were the rebels really crazy enough to attack armed troops with their bare hands? Even a kung-fu master wouldn't be much of a match for a bolt-action rifle |
In order to motivate the people to take up arms against the Europeans, the boxers spread propaganda depicting them as being immune to western weapons. They would use muskets to shoot one another, but of course, the shots fired were blank. The intent was not to cause people to face muskets bare handed, it was just a way of getting enough members to make the movement grow. But, it backfired.
People believed it, perhaps because they were so desperate to bring back the days of Chinese glory, and because they were so fed up the Manchu dominance.
|
If it is not logical don't waste time thinking about it.
|
|
tjadams
Chieftain
Suspended, go back to historum
Joined: 17-Apr-2011
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1188
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Dec-2011 at 22:13 |
I know only the main actions of the Boxers and only have one book dedicated to them:
http://www.amazon.com/Boxer-Rebellion-Dramatic-Chinas-Foreigners/dp/0425180840 I took a course in the Chinese Revolution two years ago and would have to dig out my papers to refresh my memory. The book though is good.
Edited by tjadams - 30-Dec-2011 at 22:14
|
|
lirelou
Colonel
Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 528
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 31-Dec-2011 at 00:59 |
An interesting summary, CV. In some ways, the Boxer phenomenon was not much different from the Taliban in Afghanistan. Seeking to preserve or restore a way of life that was threatened by modernization. In the Boxer's case, the European (and Japanese) nations whom they saw as imposing unwanted changes on China. Korea had a similar phenomenon in the same time period, the Donghak (Eastern Learning) movement (also romanized Tonghak), which sought to expel foreigners from Korea, and whose uprising triggered Japanese intervention in Korea, and indirectly the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-95. The Japanese, likewise, saw uprisings a decade or two earlier in their own country that sought to avoid modernization.
Edited by lirelou - 31-Dec-2011 at 01:00
|
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 31-Dec-2011 at 19:49 |
From what i heard, the rebels left their guns at home and charged the enemy with edged weapon. Their fanatical hatred of Christianity and foreign influences is very similar to the Taliban and Samurai Lirelou mentioned above
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
Vladd
Knight
Joined: 27-Dec-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 62
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Jan-2012 at 06:59 |
I am a wargamer and this period has always interested me. Can anyone suggest a good guide to the forces involved in the siege of Peking.
|
|
lirelou
Colonel
Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 528
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Jan-2012 at 13:29 |
Bear in mind two points on the Chinese of the period. First, Christianity was identified by many of the educated as related to modernization. Ergo, a threat to traditionalists but of interest to the modernists. Second, it was also identified in the Chinese mind with the Taiping Rebellion, and thus a potential threat to the Qing dynasty itself. With the establishment of the Republic of China, that dichotomy did not disappear. Despite the presence of Christians among many prominent Nationalists, Chinese nationalism took a decidedly anti-Christian turn in the 1920s and 30s, a time when the great majority of Chinese were illiterate, and relied upon oral communications for their news and view of national events.
Edited by lirelou - 01-Jan-2012 at 13:31
|
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jan-2012 at 22:06 |
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
heyamigos
Samurai
Joined: 31-Aug-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 126
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Sep-2012 at 06:34 |
Most Chinese have not forgotten this episode in their history and view current encirclement policies from other nations as a continuation of this colonialism attitude. The rebellion was triggered when the German ambassador killed a civilian Chinese boy and the Manchu prince retaliated by beheading the German. Main factors were the continuing opium trade, unequal treaty where cities were carved into semi-colonies (foreigners were immune to crime in those areas), the utter decay of society. Chinese (Han and Manchu) joined up to attack the foreigners and they retaliated by using the armies of 8 nations. Countless and priceless artifacts were stolen from the Chinese imperial palace. The French and British actually burned down the summer palace.
|
|
Mountain Man
General
Joined: 16-Aug-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 873
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 21:58 |
Like all colonials throughout history, the Western nations failed to truly understand how little their gunboat diplomacy was appreciated by the Chinese, and how many angry Chinese the Empress could muster. When faced with a limited number of troops operating on foreign soil a long way from supply and reinforcements, human wave attacks can be remarkably effective.
The siege of Peking is one of those military masterpieces that must be read to believe, full of heroism and sacrifice, but with an inevitability that could no longer be ignored.
|
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
|
|
heyamigos
Samurai
Joined: 31-Aug-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 126
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Sep-2012 at 06:18 |
Chinese can easily understand the Arab mind. Basically both have been humilitaed and bullied by Western nations in the past. They despise what Western nations dictate and tell them to do in modern times. Both cultures deep down really want to coexist peacefully with the West. The arrogance and self interests needs to stop.
|
|
longbaby
Knight
Joined: 21-Oct-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 50
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Oct-2012 at 07:06 |
The consent and support from the Manchiu rulers can't be ignored in the development of Boxer Rebellion. Generally speaking, Mauchiu rulers were not favorable of Han military organizations, but Boxers were an exception. Boxers put up a slogan of "Help Qing dynasty and Wipe out foreigners", which appealed to the Emperess much. So the government approved of the existence and development of Boxers, which is very unusual in Chinese history. Usually common people don't help rulers in China.
Many years ago I saw a Chinese movie titled "An amazing whip". This is the only movie I know which described the "Boxer Rebellion". The hero was an unknown kungfu master, whose only weapon was his long pigtail which he used like a whip (In Qing Dynasty all men grew long pigtails.) With this amazing weapon he defeated many opponents like western and Japanese warriors. But when he joined Boxers, he found his skill was totally useless since he had to be confronted with guns and canons. At last, amongst countless corpses of his comrades, he cut his pigtail and decided to the enrolled in an ammunition factory to manufacture modern weapons.
By the way, I don't think "Boxer Rebellion" is an appropriate expression to define this event since Boxers didn't rebel the rulers then. Maybe "Boxer Movement" or "Boxer Campaign" is a better term.
|
|
lirelou
Colonel
Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 528
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Oct-2012 at 13:26 |
A good point on the Boxer 'Rebellion'. Perhaps Boxer Uprising would be closer to what it was. I believe I saw the same (Hong Kong) movie, though I didn't know the title. I thought the westerners were somewhat clownishly depicted, but then historical accuracy wasn't the movie's purpose so much to entertain a Chinese audience.
A point on the pigtails. They were mandatory under the Qing dynasty, and for a man not to wear one was considered treason. (I assume bald men were excepted)
I read an opinion piece one time that pointed out that training in the martial arts to confront a foreign devil was approved of, while any martial training that might have given the skills to confront the Qing dynasty was prohibited. Yet the organization inherent in organizing against the foreigners was, per se, acquiring skills that could be used in an anti-Qing revolt.
Edited by lirelou - 27-Oct-2012 at 13:30
|
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
|
|
BoPoMoFo
Knight
Joined: 25-Oct-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 62
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Oct-2012 at 23:24 |
We need to know it was a time in China where superstition was still taken as facts and most Chinese really had no knowledge about Europeans other than they looked scary and they were taking over. There were rampant rumors such as missionaries abducting Chinese children and using their organs to make medicine. And of course, belieiving Boxers' kung fu can stop bullet was one of them and was taken as facts. As this particular kung fu was mixed with religious practices, and that the practicing Boxers were actually possessed by certain Chinese dieties, no one was going to test them.
|
|
longbaby
Knight
Joined: 21-Oct-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 50
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Oct-2012 at 05:18 |
Today I read a report about Boxer Rebellion by an American journalist (National Geographic Magazine July 1900).
I guess what puzzled Westerners most about Boxer Rebellion is how they could be so courageous, or ignorant, when confronted with guns and canons? Didn't they know bullets could kill people? Did they really think they were bulletproof?
One category of martial arts Chinese practice is called "hard kongfu". Like one lies on a spiked board and under a hard slabstone and another one hammers the stone into half with much force but the one lying remains uninjured. Or two people stand face-to-face with a spear with two pointed ends propped against their throats then they exert force to bend the spear. Chinese folk knowledge says these people are arms-proof.
But in fact these skills are not so difficult or dangerous as common people imagine. One needs much "gut" and caution to practice it, but that's all.
I guess many Boxers mastered this skill after practicing a lot then they thought they were strong enough to fend off bullets. Moreover, Boxer Rebellion leaders said there were many taboos before fighting against armed foreigners. According to the report, once 12 boxers were killed by foreigners and their bulletproof skill seemed useless.
But after the investigation, they were found out to violate the taboo rules the evening before. So the event simply enhanced the superstition of other followers.
|
|
longbaby
Knight
Joined: 21-Oct-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 50
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Nov-2012 at 07:48 |
Today I read a statement: "The Boxer Rebellion had much to do with the failure of the 1898 reform".
Well I seriously doubt this statement. I think these two events had nothing at all to do with.
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Nov-2012 at 07:14 |
A bullet has higher velocity than a spear or nail and will expand on contact. Perhaps there's another explanation: the Chinese rebels were "bulletproof" because they tied cloth strips around their major arteries before battle to avoid bleeding to death
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
lirelou
Colonel
Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 528
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Nov-2012 at 08:56 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
A bullet has higher velocity than a spear or nail and will expand on contact. Perhaps there's another explanation: the Chinese rebels were "bulletproof" because they tied cloth strips around their major arteries before battle to avoid bleeding to death |
Actually bullets that expand on contact are illegal undercurrent laws of war, and to my knowledge were not in common use during the period of the Boxer rebellion. In addition, they were hardly necessary. The rifles of many contingents of the allied force in China were newer, high velocity, smokeless powder rounds firing at up or over 2,000 feet per second. High velocity gunshot wounds include what is called "kinetic vacuity". As the bullet passes through a body, the vacuum it produces creates a shock wave that damages tissue not in the immediate passage channel of the round. If not debrided (cut away), tissue within the shock wave area begins to rot, inducing gangrene. So, the European forces in China didn't need expanding bullets. The high velocity of their rifles sufficed.
|
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
|
|