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Documentray: Stolen Kosovo

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    Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 20:27
Milosevic and talk? Hahahahahaahaha. 
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 23:01
I've noticed though you feel pretty strongly about this topic you're one of the lesser informed people, and tend to just post "Add ons" like this statement you just made rather then make an actual point.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 23:21
I am less informed? Right on. I am informed enough on the topic, but your imbecile statements about Milosevic being that willing to talk are fruitless they defy common sense and they defy the actual events that had unfolded from the late 80s.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 01:42
Make a note for yourself. Things YOU don't know about doesn't make OTHERs imbeciles.
 

There is always intense pressure in wartime for media outlets to serve as propagandists rather than journalists. While the role of the journalist is to present the world in all its complexity, so that people can make up their own minds, the propagandist simplifies the world in order to mobilize the public behind a common goal.

One basic simplification is to interpret a conflict in terms of villains and victims, with no qualification allowed for either role. Conflicts in the real world rarely fall into such simple categories: Particularly in ethnic conflicts, both sides usually have legitimate grievances that are often used to justify a new round of abuses against the other side.

In presenting the background to the Kosovo conflict, U.S. news outlets usually begin with Serbia's revocation of the Kosovo Albanians' autonomy in 1989. This was a crucial decision, one of the major reasons for the rise of the KLA. It also destabilized the Yugoslavian system and contributed to the country's breakup.

Yet media accounts have rarely explained why Serbia lifted Kosovo's autonomy. The article, from the New York Times in 1987, gives important background to this decision. Although the article is easily found in the Nexis database, little to none of this information has found its way into contemporary coverage of Kosovo, in the Times or anywhere else.

Also for the troubles in Balkans and Kosovo is blamed Serbia's 'stronman' Mr. Milosevic. From NYT articles one can see that Albanian separatists' quest for an "ethnically pure" Kosovo as part of Greater Albania started 1981, when Mr Milosevic was not even in politics. (At that time he was a bank manager.)

If one read a similar history of Kosovo written today, one would likely dismiss it as pro-Serb propaganda. Yet this was written 12 years ago, when Kosovo was an obscure corner of the world, and the New York Times would not seem to have any particular interest in defending Serbs or attacking Albanians.

 


The New York Times
November 1, 1987,

Sunday, Late City Final Edition
Section 1; Part 1, Page 14, Column 1;

"In Yugoslavia, Rising Ethnic Strife Brings Fears of Worse Civil Conflict"

By DAVID BINDER, Special to the New York Times

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia

    Portions of southern Yugoslavia have reached such a state of ethnic friction that Yugoslavs have begun to talk of the horrifying possibility of ''civil war'' in a land that lost one-tenth of its population, or 1.7 million people, in World War II.

    The current hostilities pit separatist-minded ethnic Albanians against the various Slavic populations of Yugoslavia and occur at all levels of society, from the highest officials to the humblest peasants.

    A young Army conscript of ethnic Albanian origin shot up his barracks, killing four sleeping Slavic bunkmates and wounding six others.

    The army says it has uncovered hundreds of subversive ethnic Albanian cells in its ranks. Some arsenals have been raided.

    Vicious Insults

    Ethnic Albanians in the Government have manipulated public funds and regulations to take over land belonging to Serbs. And politicians have exchanged vicious insults.

    Slavic Orthodox churches have been attacked, and flags have been torn down. Wells have been poisoned and crops burned. Slavic boys have been knifed, and some young ethnic Albanians have been told by their elders to rape Serbian girls.

    Ethnic Albanians comprise the fastest growing nationality in Yugoslavia and are expected soon to become its third largest, after the Serbs and Croats.

    Radicals' Goals

    The goal of the radical nationalists among them, one said in an interview, is an ''ethnic Albania that includes western Macedonia, southern Montenegro, part of southern Serbia, Kosovo and Albania itself.'' That includes large chunks of the republics that make up the southern half of Yugoslavia.

    Other ethnic Albanian separatists admit to a vision of a greater Albania governed from Pristina in southern Yugoslavia rather than Tirana, the capital of neighboring Albania.

    There is no evidence that the hard-line Communist Government in Tirana is giving them material assistance.

    The principal battleground is the region called Kosovo, a high plateau ringed by mountains that is somewhat smaller than New Jersey. Ethnic Albanians there make up 85 percent of the population of 1.7 million. The rest are Serbians and Montenegrins.

    Worst Strife in Years

    As Slavs flee the protracted violence, Kosovo is becoming what ethnic Albanian nationalists have been demanding for years, and especially strongly since the bloody rioting by ethnic Albanians in Pristina in 1981 - an ''ethnically pure'' Albanian region, a ''Republic of Kosovo'' in all but name.

    The violence, a journalist in Kosovo said, is escalating to ''the worst in the last seven years.'' ...

    Were the ethnic tensions restricted to Kosovo, Yugoslavia's problems with its Albanian nationals might be more manageable. But some Yugoslavs and some ethnic Albanians believe the struggle has spread far beyond Kosovo. Macedonia, a republic to the south with a population of 1.8 million, has a restive ethnic Albanian minority of 350,000.

    ''We've already lost western Macedonia to the Albanians,'' said a member of the Yugoslav party presidium, explaining that the ethnic minority had driven the Slavic Macedonians out of the region.

    Attacks on Slavs

    Last summer, the authorities in Kosovo said they documented 40 ethnic Albanian attacks on Slavs in two months. In the last two years, 320 ethnic Albanians have been sentenced for political crimes, nearly half of them characterized as severe.

    In one incident, Fadil Hoxha, once the leading politician of ethnic Albanian origin in Yugoslavia, joked at an official dinner in Prizren last year that Serbian women should be used to satisfy potential ethnic Albanian rapists. After his quip was reported this October, Serbian women in Kosovo protested, and Mr. Hoxha was dismissed from the Communist Party.

    As a precaution, the central authorities dispatched 380 riot police officers to the Kosovo region for the first time in four years.

    Officials in Belgrade view the ethnic Albanian challenge as imperiling the foundations of the multinational experiment called federal Yugoslavia, which consists of six republics and two provinces.

    'Lebanonizing' of Yugoslavia

    High-ranking officials have spoken of the ''Lebanonizing'' of their country and have compared its troubles to the strife in Northern Ireland.

    Borislav Jovic, a member of the Serbian party's presidency, spoke in an interview of the prospect of ''two Albanias, one north and one south, like divided Germany or Korea,'' and of ''practically the breakup of Yugoslavia.'' He added: ''Time is working against us.''

    The federal Secretary for National Defense, Fleet Adm. Branko Mamula, told the army's party organization in September of efforts by ethnic Albanians to subvert the armed forces. ''Between 1981 and 1987 a total of 216 illegal organizations with 1,435 members of Albanian nationality were discovered in the Yugoslav People's Army,'' he said. Admiral Mamula said ethnic Albanian subversives had been preparing for ''killing officers and soldiers, poisoning food and water, sabotage, breaking into weapons arsenals and stealing arms and ammunition, desertion and causing flagrant nationalist incidents in army units.''

    Concerns Over Military

    Coming three weeks after the ethnic Albanian draftee, Aziz Kelmendi, had slaughtered his Slavic comrades in the barracks at Paracin, the speech struck fear in thousands of families whose sons were about to start their mandatory year of military service.

    Because the Albanians have had a relatively high birth rate, one-quarter of the army's 200,000 conscripts this year are ethnic Albanians. Admiral Mamula suggested that 3,792 were potential human timebombs.

    He said the army had ''not been provided with details relevant for assessing their behavior.'' But a number of Belgrade politicians said they doubted the Yugoslav armed forces would be used to intervene in Kosovo as they were to quell violent rioting in 1981 in Pristina. They reason that the army leadership is extremely reluctant to become involved in what is, in the first place, a political issue.

    Ethnic Albanians already control almost every phase of life in the autonomous province of Kosovo, including the police, judiciary, civil service, schools and factories.

    Non-Albanian visitors almost immediately feel the independence - and suspicion - of the ethnic Albanian authorities.

    Region's Slavs Lack Strength

    While 200,000 Serbs and Montenegrins still live in the province, they are scattered and lack cohesion. In the last seven years, 20,000 of them have fled the province, often leaving behind farmsteads and houses, for the safety of the Slavic north.

    Until September, the majority of the Serbian Communist Party leadership pursued a policy of seeking compromise with the Kosovo party hierarchy under its ethnic Albanian leader, Azem Vlasi.

    But during a 30-hour session of the Serbian central committee in late September, the Serbian party secretary, Slobodan Milosevic, deposed Dragisa Pavlovic, as head of Belgrade's party organization, the country's largest. Mr. Milosevic accused Mr. Pavlovic of being an appeaser who was soft on Albanian radicals. Mr. Milosevic had courted the Serbian backlash vote with speeches in Kosovo itself calling for ''the policy of the hard hand.''...

    Remzi Koljgeci, of the Kosovo party leadership, said in an interview in Pristina that ''relations are cold'' between the ethnic Albanians and Serbs of the province, that there were too many ''people without hope.''...

    Efforts are under way to strengthen central authority through amendments to the constitution. ...The hope is that something will be done then to exert the rule of law in Kosovo while drawing ethnic Albanians back into Yugoslavia's mainstream.

    nt
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 02:57
 
Clearly this article was written by a Serbian sympathizer, and probably was an effort of the then rising Serbian nationalists to justify their future actions,and to gain support  abroad by demonizeing Albanians.There's nothing true there,but just a collection of cliches invented by serbs. 
Im dissapointed though,i missed the part speaking about the raped nuns,the favourite sport among Albanians,at least according to Serbs.


Edited by vranakonti - 26-Jun-2008 at 02:57
Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 04:34
Yea way to fail at making a relevant point to counter anything there to be said. So any time something like that is written "oh pro serb propaganda" any time it panders to your beliefs "Oh its the truth!" You take an out dated refrence, the only one saying there was a massacre against Albanians, which later contradict yourself and say THAT one is true as opposed to all the other ones.
 
You can live in this "Milosevic is evil and the Serbs are nazis" victim fantasy land if you want. When the time comes it won't really matter and I don't think you'll ever realize that the game being played is chess not checkers.
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 04:59
 
So,what exactly is going to happen?
Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 05:36
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Make a note for yourself. Things YOU don't know about doesn't make OTHERs imbeciles.
 



Originally posted by myself


I am less informed? Right on. I am informed enough on the topic, but your imbecile statements about Milosevic being that willing to talk are fruitless they defy common sense and they defy the actual events that had unfolded from the late 80s.


Apparently you haven't read just enough I called your statement imbecile not yourself.


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 05:46
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

I've noticed though you feel pretty strongly about this topic you're one of the lesser informed people, and tend to just post "Add ons" like this statement you just made rather then make an actual point.


Here is something in English as I do not feel like translating and you do not read Yugoslav.


Milosevic's Yugoslavia

The advent of multiparty politics in Yugoslavia consolidated Slobodan Milosevic's power as Serbian president.

Unlike in most of Eastern Europe, Milosevic's Serbian Communist Party embraced popular nationalism, rather than reacted against it.

The Yugoslav Communist Party collapsed following a party congress in Belgrade in January 1990. The congress voted for an end to the one-party system, but Milosevic refused to agree to other reforms. The Slovenian and Croatian delegations walked out, leading to the break-up of the party.

In July 1990 the Serbian Communist Party changed its name to the Serbian Socialist Party. But it retained its assets, power-structures and - crucially - control of the state media.

As Croatia called elections, Milosevic warned that if the Yugoslav nation dissolved, it would be necessary to redraw Serbia's boundaries to include Serbs living in other republics. The prospect of civil war was looming.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/europe/2000/milosevic_yugoslavia/communism.stm

What a great man!!! What a diplomat. This only before the war that I have to quote to disqualify your infatuation with him. Even before he did any of his war crimes he already prepared for a civil war by openly challenging the republics that had full legal right under Tito's constitution to secede from the confederation.

It is not the case that I do not read, but your inferior sources warrant common sense humorous comments.




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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 05:59
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

I've noticed though you feel pretty strongly about this topic you're one of the lesser informed people, and tend to just post "Add ons" like this statement you just made rather then make an actual point.


PS

I am in no way influenced by the recent outcomes in the Kosovo-Serbia issue as I was not for such a rash deceleration of Independence that did not end up fair for both sides.

However, Milosevic was an a--hole, and his policies and actions are directly intertwined with the deceleration of independence approved by Washington. If he had not revoked autonomy and killed innocent people that would not have happened (again not implying that the KLA did not do their share of bad things after the outbreak of violence).
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 12:09
Noel Malcolm
 
The Yugoslav crisis began in Kosovo, and it will end in Kosovo." One can hear this saying repeated almost anywhere in the former Yugoslavia; it is one of the few things on which all parties to the conflicts of the 1990s seem to agree.

It was in Kosovo, in 1987, that a little known communist apparatchik called Slobodan Milosevic discovered what a powerful weapon Serbian nationalism could be. It was through his exploitation of the Kosovo issue that Milosevic was able to take over the party machine in Serbia, extend his power to other parts of the federal Yugoslav system and, in the process, set off a Croatian and Slovenian counter-reaction that led, by 1991, to the break-up of the Yugoslav state. And it is in Kosovo today, with its 90 per cent majority of ethnic Albanians living under the quasi-apartheid system of Serbian rule (imposed by Milosevic when he stripped the province of its autonomous status), that the greatest unresolved problem of modern Balkan politics is to be found.

No one knows how the story will end in Kosovo. Possible final destinations include autonomy, partition and independence, and the means of arriving at them range from peaceful negotiation or international imposition to civil disobedience, violent intifada and full-scale war. It is arguably the area with the worst human rights abuses in Europe, and certainly the place where, if war does break out, the killing and destruction will be more intense than anything hitherto witnessed in the region.

In the west, the popular view of the recent wars in Croatia and Bosnia was always that these were "ethnic conflicts," created by the bubbling up of obscure but virulent ethnic hatreds among the local populations. This approach was essentially false: it ignored the primary role of politicians (above all, the Serbian nationalist-communist Milosevic) in creating conflict at the political level, and indeed it ignored the fact that the wars themselves were launched not by ordinary civilians but by armed forces directed from above. As a characterisation of the history of those regions, talk about "ancient ethnic hatreds" was in any case grossly misleading: there had never been ethnic wars in the "ancient" history of Bosnia or Croatia, and the only conflicts with a partly ethnic character were modern ones, produced under special geopolitical conditions (above all, the second world war). Some elements of prejudice, linked in some cases to religious issues and in others to memories of the second world war, did of course exist. But between low-level prejudices on the one hand and military conflict, concentration camps and mass murder on the other, there lies a very long road: it was the political leaders who propelled the people down that road, and not vice versa.

Does the same apply to the conflict between Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo? At first sight, this looks much more like a genuine "ethnic" conflict. The basic division seems to be an ethnic one in the full sense: unlike the different types of Bosnian, who are all Slavs and all speak the same language, the Serbs and the Albanians are linguistically distinct. Together with the differentiation in language goes a range of other cultural differences, many of them linked to religion: the division between Serb and Albanian roughly coincides with the division between eastern Orthodox and Muslim. (The exceptions are the small minority of Catholic Albanians, and the Muslim Slavs, who more or less identify with the Bosnian Muslims.) With both language and religion setting people apart, all the conditions seem to be present for a primary conflict of peoples.

And yet, once we begin to examine both the present political situation and the nature of Kosovo's past, the idea of ethnic or religious hatred welling up from the depths of popular psychology starts to seem less convincing. The Albanians of Kosovo today are in many ways a politically mobilised people and religion has played almost no role at all in that mobilisation. There is no Islamic political movement among the Albanians. Some tensions apparently exist (largely hidden from view) between Albanian Catholics and Albanian Muslims, yet whatever tensions there may be are not strong enough to inhibit either neighbourly good relations or political cooperation. Where religion is a factor in the present political conflict it is on the Orthodox side, which constantly employs religious rhetoric to justify the defence of "sacred" Serbian interests; but this is a classic example of religion being manipulated for ideological purposes. If we look further back into Kosovo's past, we can find many examples of mixed religious life involving the Orthodox as well as the Catholics with the Muslims: the syncretistic practices of folk religion, for example, or the tradition of Muslim Albanian "guardians" of Orthodox religious sites. There were also, on the other hand, many cases of oppression and discrimination against both of the Christian churches by Muslim Albanian lords and their followers. Religious prejudice was part of the pattern here, but the pattern itself was largely a socio-political one, involving the exercise and abuse of local political power for the sake of financial gain.

As for the supposedly long history of ethnic conflict, this too is a claim that needs to be heavily qualified. There have been many battles and wars in Kosovo, but until the last 100 years or so none of them had the character of an "ethnic" conflict between Albanians and Serbs. Members of these two populations fought together as allies at the battle of Kosovo in 1389-indeed, they probably fought as allies on both sides, some of them under Prince Lazar and others under the Ottoman Sultan. Three hundred years later, when an Austrian army invaded Kosovo, both Serbs and Albanians rose up in sympathy to throw off Ottoman rule: modern historians have had great difficulty trying to distinguish between Serbs and Albanians when analysing the contemporary reports of these events. A later rebellion in support of another Austrian invasion in 1737 also involved a mixed Albanian-Slav group from the mountain areas of northern Albania and Montenegro: the Slav and Albanian mountain clans there had long traditions of cooperation and intermarriage and, in some cases, legends of common ancestry. And over many centuries in Kosovo the ethnic divisions between Serbs and Albanians were never clear cut. There was ethnic-linguistic assimilation in both directions; and enough of a shared way of life was established for the Serbian colonists who arrived in Kosovo in the 1920s to feel that the long-established local Serbs were almost as foreign to them as the "alien" Albanians.

None of this is meant to imply that Kosovo was always a wonderland of mutual tolerance. Conditions for much of its history were far from utopian. Considerable blame must lie with the rapacious local Albanian lords of the 18th and early 19th centuries, to whom the property of Christian peasants represented particularly easy pickings. But this sort of exploitation was not driven primarily by motives derived from religion or ethnicity. Muslim Albanian peasants also suffered grievously. What really turned the division between Orthodox Serbs and Muslim Albanians into a more general and systematic conflict was the politicisation of the issue in the 19th century, which arose during the growth and expansion of the Slav Christian states in the Balkans.

It was 19th century Serbian ideology that created a cult of the mediaeval battle of Kosovo as a nationally defining historical and spiritual event. It was the political role played by protector powers such as Russia, with their consuls in Prishtina or Mitrovica, that helped to create a new atmosphere of suspicion and hostility on the part of the local Albanians; Ottoman policy in the Crimean war, and the later transplanting of fiercely anti-Russian (and generally anti-Orthodox) Circassians into Kosovo also played an important part in souring Albanian-Serb relations. But it was only after the mass expulsion of Albanians and other Muslims from the areas conquered by Serbia and Montenegro in 1877–78 that the Albanians in Kosovo came to see Serbia-and the Serbs of Kosovo who were claimed as an "unredeemed" part of the Serbian population-as a threat to their existence. And, above all, it was the policies imposed from above by the Serbian and Montenegrin governments after their conquest of Kosovo in 1912 that created systematic hostility and hatred on a scale that the region had never seen before.

From the Albanian point of view, the experience of that imposition of Serbian-Montenegrin rule (and its reimposition as Yugoslav rule in 1918) was similar to that of many other peoples conquered and colonised by European Christian powers-the Algerians under the French or the central Asians (or Chechens) under the Russians. Many aspects of this period of Kosovo's history match just such a "colonialist" model. There was even an explicit programme of introducing Serb "colonists" to Kosovo in the inter-war period.

From the Serbian point of view, however, what happened in 1912 was to be understood according to a different model: it was the ultimate example of a war of liberation to release a captive population (the Serbs of Kosovo) from an alien imperial power (the Turks). And of course there was a real difference between the case of Kosovo and the case of a territory such as Algeria: in the latter example, there was no continuous history of a French population in Algeria going all the way back to a mediaeval French kingdom there. The trouble with Kosovo, however, was that both of these conflicting conceptual models-the colonialist one, which made sense to the Albanians, and the liberationist one, which made sense to the Serbs-were simultaneously true. The truth as experienced by the Albanians could be described as the more important of the two truths, on the simple grounds that Albanians made up the absolute majority of the population of Kosovo at the time of its conquest. But to reduce the Serb version to a secondary status is not to deny it altogether.

At the time, the Serbian government made great efforts to bolster its case and turn it into the dominant interpretation. A memorandum sent to the great powers by Belgrade in early 1913 set out three justifications for Serbian rule in Kosovo: the "moral right of a more civilised people"; the historic right to an area which contained the patriarchate buildings of the Serbian Orthodox church and had once been part of the mediaeval Serbian empire; and a kind of ethnographic right based on the fact that at some time in the past Kosovo had had a majority Serb population-a right, according to the memorandum, unaffected by the "recent invasion" of Albanians.

Of these three lines of argument, the first was rapidly devalued by the actual behaviour of the Serbian (and, subsequently, Yugoslav) regime in Kosovo. The second was in two parts: one relating to the Serbian Orthodox church, the other more generally to the mediaeval empire. Claims are still made today that Kosovo is the "Jerusalem" of the Serbs; but this has always been something of an exaggeration. In no form of Christianity, including eastern Orthodoxy, does a "holy place" play any sort of theological role equivalent to the role of Jerusalem in Judaism. The seat of the Serbian Orthodox church was not founded in Kosovo; it merely moved there after its original foundation (in central Serbia) was burnt down. Nor does the patriarchate have any continuous history as an institution: it was recreated by the modern Yugoslav state in 1920 (having been defunct for 154 years), and since that date the Patriarch has tended to reside mainly in Belgrade. As for the Serbian empire, this was a mediaeval state which had its origins not in Kosovo but in Rascia, an area beyond Kosovo's northwestern border, and most of the important early mediaeval Serbian monasteries and churches were built outside Kosovo itself. But in any case, the main objection here must be that it makes no sense to base claims of modern political ownership on the geography of long-gone kingdoms or empires. This objection is a simple point, but one which people in the Balkans sometimes find convenient to ignore. Edith Durham, who witnessed the effects of the Serb-Montenegrin conquest of Kosovo in 1912, later recalled a characteristic exchange: "I once pointed out to a Serb schoolmaster that we had held Calais at the same time but that did not give us the right to it. He replied: 'Why not? You have a fleet.'"

Of the three arguments in the Serbian memorandum cited above, the third, about ethnography, is the one that has most bedevilled historical writing about Kosovo. Looking at some historical works from the region itself, you might almost think that ethnic demography was the only real subject matter of Kosovo's history. Some modern Albanian writers argue, quite implausibly, that there was always an Albanian majority in Kosovo, even in the mediaeval Serbian kingdom; many Serbs believe, equally falsely, that there were no Albanians at all in Kosovo before the end of the 17th century. One historical-demographic myth which enjoyed great power in the late 19th century was the idea that most of the Albanians in Kosovo were "really" Slavs; while it is true that ethnic identities have always been somewhat fluid, this claim is not justified by the historical evidence. Another myth has grown up around the "great migration" of the Serbs in 1690 which, it is alleged, created a demographic vacuum, subsequently filled by a flood of alien Albanians from outside Kosovo. A closer study of the evidence suggests that although there were heavy war losses in 1690, affecting all categories of people, most aspects of the "great migration" story are fanciful. And the evidence also suggests that, while there was a flow of Albanians from northern Albania into Kosovo, a significant component of the Albanians' demographic growth was the expansion of an indigenous Albanian population within Kosovo itself.

Serbian nationalists routinely portray the Albanians of Kosovo as "aliens." Kosovo's Muslim Albanian population does bear the imprint of its centuries of Ottoman acculturation. But the Ottoman heritage, including the heritage of Islam, is something that belongs to the culture of all the people of the Balkans; to reject it as "alien," after so many centuries, is as historically absurd as it would be for Irish writers to reject the English language as alien, or South American peasants to reject Christianity.

it is not my purpose to present a case for or against any particular solution to the Kosovo crisis. Some form of self-government for the Albanians there seems, to almost all outside observers, both necessary and right; but there are different forms that might be attempted. The acceptance or rejection of possible solutions for Kosovo will involve different considerations from the ones which have applied to Bosnia. Bosnia was a historic unity, a geopolitical entity which had enjoyed an almost continuous history (as a unit within Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian and Yugoslav states) since the middle ages. Kosovo is not such a historic unity: there was a vilayet of Prizren from 1868 and a vilayet of Kosovo from 1877 onwards, but those vilayets had a very different shape on the map from modern Kosovo, and before that period Kosovo was divided among several Ottoman administrative units. (These facts have sometimes been misrepresented by Albanian spokesmen who have been known to claim that Kosovo "has been an autonomous entity since ancient times.")

On the other hand, Serbia does not have a continuous history either. For several hundred years, Kosovo was not part of Serbia, because there was no Serbia to be part of: during most of the long Ottoman period, Serbia did not exist as an entity at all. Kosovo was annexed de facto by Serbia within living memory, in 1912; de jure it was not annexed by the Serbian kingdom at all. In modern historical terms, the relation between Kosovo and the rest of Serbia is less close or organic than the relation between any part of Bosnia and the rest of Bosnia. Objections on grounds of historical identity to the partitioning of Bosnia, in other words, need not entail any equivalent objections to the dividing of Kosovo from Serbia.

In terms of ethnic geography, again, the case of Bosnia is very different from that of Kosovo. The three constituent peoples of Bosnia lived mixed together, creating a jumbled ethnic-religious patchwork; in many areas there was no absolute majority group at all. The argument against any division of Bosnia was therefore both practical and moral-practical because there were no clear lines for it on the map, and moral because the only way of creating such lines was to engage in "ethnic cleansing." Kosovo, on the other hand, offers what by any Balkan standards can be described as a compact mass of ethnically homogeneous people. Of course ethnic homogeneity in itself is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for statehood; but it has in fact been treated as at least a natural starting point for the creation of many modern states, both large and small. Those Serbian politicians who have defended the right of Bosnian or Croatian Serbs to carve out new, artificially homogenised ethnic areas for themselves are especially ill-placed to argue against the claims of the Albanians, who constitute roughly 90 per cent of Kosovo's population.

At the legal level, too, there is no contradiction between wanting to maintain the integrity of Bosnia and doubting whether Kosovo should remain an integral part of Serbia. The most authoritative legal judgment on the break-up of Yugoslavia was the one issued by the Badinter commission (an international group of constitutional lawyers), which advised western governments in 1992. According to this commission, what happened when Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Macedonia became independent was not the secession of those territories from a continuing Yugoslav state; rather, it was the complete break-up of the old federal state into its constituent units. Each of these, therefore, now had the right to be an independent country.

Unfortunately the commission never specified what counted as a "constituent unit" of the old Yugoslavia. It is clear that the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina was such a unit (and that sub-sections of that republic were not); but in the case of Serbia and Kosovo the legal position is not clear at all. Kosovo had a dual status in the old Yugoslav constitution: it was theoretically part of Serbia, but at the same time it had its own direct representation on federal bodies and functioned, in practice, like a fully-fledged "constituent unit" of the Yugoslav federation. That is why the Kosovo Albanians now believe that they have just as much right as the other republics to independence. The international community, however, has chosen to interpret "constituent units" as referring only to the six republics of the former Yugoslavia; this is not a legal decision, merely a political one, into which the western powers slipped in 1992 because it seemed the most convenient approach to take.

The limits of that convenience have now been reached. Six years ago, it may have seemed that the Kosovo Albanians were a sleeping dog, best left to lie undisturbed. But the dog was not in fact sleeping; it was engaging in a silent protest, a Gandhiesque policy of passive resistance to Serbian rule. The patience which that policy required of the ethnic Albanians has been eroded, year by year. Since the summer of 1996 a growing number of shootings and bombings has signalled the existence of a small but active Albanian guerrilla movement; and the so-called "police operation" (involving attack helicopters and artillery) against that movement in early March 1998 has done more to energise and radicalise the Albanian population than anything the guerrillas could have done themselves.

The response of western governments, so far, has been to call upon the Albanians to negotiate for the resumption of their "autonomous" status-in other words, a return to the 1974 Yugoslav constitution. There is just one flaw in this approach, one small point which the western diplomats seem to have overlooked: the Yugoslavia of 1974 no longer exists. Full republican status is the minimum that the Kosovo Albanians would accept, even as the starting point for negotiations, and the majority of them desire complete independence. It was the Greek sage Heraclitus who remarked that you cannot step twice into the same river. The western politicians who try to ignore this advice may find, by the time they are fully immersed, that it has become a river of blood.End%20of%20the%20article
 
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 14:19
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Yea basically there was no genocide in Kosovo against the Albanians and nobody but people with an agenda say this. Racak wasn't a massacre, all the forensic teams sent in agree on this. There was never a plan of genocide. Show me proof of this, an order, something!
 
I did not say there was Genocide and nobody ever claimed it,not the Albanians at least,what i said is there was a plan for genocide,and there was mass explusion of  people from there homes.And it was exactly the plan of genocide and the warning signs shown to the American congress that changed Americas perceptions on the conflict,it had till then been not so keen to suport the Albanians,as i told you,and you take no notice,Kosovo has once declared indipendence,but was not recognised by America or any other nation exept Albania.It was exactly Serbia behaviour that alarmed the international comunity and in a way forced them into action against Serbia,first diplomaticaly and only as the last option military action,you can only look at the fact that western media has always been and still is anti-Albanian and pro Serbian.
 
As for Racak massacre,it was and is,proven beyound resonable doubt.There was pictures and videos of the aftermath, showing children and old people masacred like in horror movies,by barbarians who had previously masacred civilians in Bosnia and Croatia.Mass Criminals who still find shelter in Serbia and have not faced justice yet.
 
As i told you,are you denying there was crimes comited by the Serbians???????Not even the Serbians deny this,not even Mladic and Karacic deny this.There opinion is only that they are heroes and they killed enemies.Thats the absurdity of it all.
 
KLA are terrorists and Milosevic did want to talk with them. The simple tiny fact that you didn't even know that the KLA first started attacking Serbian police and non Albanian civilians which made Milosevic attack them really just shows how skewed your perspective is.
 
Attacking police,is nothing new in countries were there are different ethnic groops,specially were is ethnic tension,but to use the actions of few people who attack the police to comit mass murder and the espulsion of 1.5 milon people (out of 1.9) burning there homes,killing and raping anything that moves on the way is hardly justifiable police action.It is planed Genocide.
on the words of Miloshevic : NOBODY WILL EVER BEAT YOU UP AGAIN: (said to a serbian nationalist gathering in Kosovo,meaning that Albanians were biting up the Serbs,but they should not worry beacuse soon,under Miloshevic no one would bit them up,at the time this sent alarm bells across Jugosllavia)
 
: NOT ONE ALBANIAN WILL REMAIN IN KOSOVO: (said at the time he was feeling the international pressure to stop his military activities against the unarmed Albanian population in Kosovo)
 
Thats if you had more doubts.
 
The autonomy was taken away by Milosevic because of how the Albanians in power were using their position. The same great ol echo of "Greater Albania" seems to be something intertwined in every fiber of all the Albanian politicians in power.
 
The autonomy was taken away by Miloshevic because of his nationalistic agenda,and because he wanted total control of an region that enjoyed the same rights as an republic in Yugoslavia.
 
It is this autonomy and much more that the Serbs are offering now,after they had to comit all the crimes and open the pandoras box,there is no way back now,there remains not a single family in Kosovo not afected by the atrocities of war,and not a single man who is not willing to go to war should Serbia think to go into another adventure in Kosovo.Albania also is in a much better position to help,and frankly i think that by force Serbia does not stand a chance.
 
Are long gone the times when Serbia controlled an Army that was created with the work of all former Yugoslav peoples,and used that army to opress them,and are long gone the times when it had enough petrol reserves to run that horrible military machine,it should now use water to run its old tanks.
As i told you,even after Miloshevic strped Kosovo of its autonomy,there was time of diplomacy,Albanians with Ibrahim Rugova exosted all posible diplomatic routes,but it seams that the nationalist in Serbia were hell bent on kicking Albanians out of their homes.
They suffered for that,of course they would,it is the unwriten law of the Balkans,that the warlord orders a thousend heads of the enemy after a thousend heads of its people have been cut,
 and he gets them.
 
 
 
 
I think Kosovo and Serbia should look into future intergration. The intergration of Kosovo into Serbia. This non sense has to stop. The KLA is already operationg in FYROM trying to stir the same crap up again. The Albanians in Pristina hold up signs of Greater Albania being part of Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo, FYROM and Greece.
 
The only integration they have to look foward now is the Europian integration,and to become prosperous countries,and cooperating neighbours.There is no way back for Kosovo under Serbia,and Serbia knows this,and it will come to accept this sooner or latter.Unless of course we return to one war after another,and A thousend heads cut after one thousends head were cut.
 
There is no KLA operating now in FYROM,they are participants of an political procces now,and totally respect their Macedonian statehood.
 
There can not be such thing as an greater Albania,since not one single Albanian claims territory in places were Albanians dont live,unlike every other Balkan Greater Nation.
If there is to be a union,then it will be only by regions were Albanians are the predominant people living there,thats not Greater Albania,thats very Natural.I dont think that will happen because of diplomatic sensitivities in the Balkans,but it might happen the day when Serbians will be the ones to ask for an Albanian union to happen.Sounds crazy???
 


Edited by HEROI - 26-Jun-2008 at 14:54
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 14:45
ok guys. Calm down!

Hot topics need cool heads...... something us Balkanites find a real challenge (the cool heads bit - we seem to have no issues with hot topics.....).

Silly jibes about, who reads the most or least and immature stuff like that really sh*ts me. keep it on topic and don't steep down to personal attacks. Its easy, don't post until you take a breath or go for a walk and think of a way to better express you views or debate a point. Saved me when i was a member posting on the same stuff.

 I don't want to hand out yellow cards, so im coming in early to give  everyone a heads up.



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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 17:59
"Here is something in English as I do not feel like translating and you do not read Yugoslav."
 
I don't have any "infatuation" with him. Obviously you don't have enough faith in your arguement that you must make personal adds on as well.
 
So what exactly did you quote there that Milosevic did badly? He didn't want to agree to some changes, and the Slovenians and Croats walked out. Yea clearly walking out is better then talking? And he said that the boundaries would be needed to redrawn to fit all the Serbs into it. Why is that a problem? Contrary to popular belief, the Serbs in Bosnia had lived there as long or longer then the Muslims. So why should they be forced to be part of a new republic they didn't want to be part of? Let's not forget how Izetbegovic took power in Bosnia. After losing his election to another party memeber, a Muslim that was pro Yugoslav, he used his political power to force him out of power and took reigns of the state. So in that aspect Milosevic is already more clean then Izetbegovic. At least Serbs voted for Milosevic. Next what was that book Izetbegovic wrote? "Islamic Decleration" was it?
 
Let's read some lines from the islamo-facist mein kampf:
 

"... Do we want the Muslim nations to cease moving in circles, to stop being dependent, backward and poverty-stricken;

do we want them to once again with a sure step climb the road of dignity and enlightment and to become masters of their own fate;

do we want the springs of courage, genius and virtue to come forth strongly once again;

then we must show the way which leads to that objective:

The implementation of Islam in all fields of individuals' personal lives, in family and in society, by renewal of the Islamic religious thought and creating a uniform Muslim community from Morocco to Indonesia. ..."

page 3


"... A nation, and an individual, who has accepted Islam is incapable of living and dying for another ideal after that fact. It is unthinkable for a Muslim to sacrifice himself for any tzar or ruler, no matter what his name may be, or for the glory of any nation, party or some such, because acting on the strongest Muslim instinct he recognizes in this a certain type of godlessness and idolatry. A Muslim can die only with the name of Allah on his lips and for the glory of Islam, or he may run away from the battlefield. ..."

page 4


"... Muslim nations will never accept anything that is explicitly against Islam, because Islam here is not merely a faith and the law, Islam has become love and compassion. He who rises against Islam will reap nothing but hate and resistance. ..."

page 17


"... In perspective, there is but one way out in sight: creation and gathering of a new intelligence which thinks and feels along Islamic lines. This intelligence would then raise the flag of the Islamic order and together with the Muslim masses embark into action to implement this order. ..."

page 18


"... The shortest definition of the Islamic order defines it as a unity of faith and law, upbringing and force, ideals and interests, spiritual community and state, free will and force. As a synthesis of these components, the Islamic order has two fundamental premises: an Islamic society and Islamic authority. The former is the essence, and the latter the form of an Islamic order. An Islamic society without Islamic power is incomplete and weak; Islamic power without an Islamic society is either a utopia or violence.

A Muslim generally does not exist as an individual. If he wishes to live and survive as a Muslim, he must create an environment, a community, an order. He must change the world or be changed himself. History knows of no true Islamic movement which was not at the same time a political movement as well. This is because Islam is a faith, but also a philosophy, a set of moral codes, an order of things, a style, an atmosphere - in a nutshell, an integral way of life. ..."

page 19


"... The first and foremost of such conclusions is surely the one on the incompatibility of Islam and non-Islamic systems. There can be no peace or coexistence between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions. ... Islam clearly excludes the right and possibility of activity of any strange ideology on its own turf. Therefore, there is no question of any laicistic principles, and the state should be an expression and should support the moral concepts of the religion. ..."

page 22


" Islam contains the principle of ummet, i.e. the tendency towards unification of all Muslims into a single community - a spiritual, cultural and political community. Islam is not a nationality, it is above nationalities. ..."

page 27


"... The upbringing of the nation, and especially the mass media - the press, TV and film - should be in the hands of people whose Islamic moral and intellectual authority is undisputed. ...

... Islamic renewal cannot be initiated without a religious, and cannot be successfully continued and concluded without a political revolution."

page 32


"... Establishing of an Islamic order is thus shown as the ultimate act of democracy, because it means the implementation of the deepest desires of the Muslim nations and common man. One thing is certain: no matter what a part of the rich and the intelligence wants, the common man wants Islam and living in his Islamic community. ..."

page 33


"... In the struggle for an Islamic order all methods are permitted, except one - except crime. No-one has the right to smear the beautiful name of Islam and this struggle by uncontrolled and excessive use of violence. ..."

page 37


"... Islamic order may be implemented only in countries where Muslims represent the majority of the population. Without this majority, the Islamic order is reduced to authority only (because the other element is lacking - the Islamic society), and may turn into violence. ..."

page 37


"... the Islamic movement should and must start taking over the power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough to not only overthrow the existing non-Islamic, but also to build up a new Islamic authority. ..."

page 43


"... Pakistan was a general rehearsal of introducing Islamic order under modern conditions and on the present stage of development. ...

... The conclusions from the twenty-odd year of Pakistan's existence are clear enough. They are:

First, the struggle for Islamic order and a general reconstruction of the Muslim society can be successfully conducted only by experienced and seasoned individuals, aligned into a staunch and homogenous organization. This organization is no political party from the arsenal of the Western democracy; it is a movement based on Islamic ideology and with clear moral and ideological criteria of belonging;

Second, the struggle for an Islamic order today is a struggle to implement the essence of Islam, and this means that in practice one must ensure religious and moral upbringing of the people and provide for basic elements of social justice. At this time, forms are of secondary importance; and

Third, the functions of the Islamic republic are not to primarily declare equality of all men and brotherhood of all Muslims, but to struggle for some of these high moral principles in practice. The awakened Islam should in every community take into its own hands the flag for a more just social order and to clearly state that in struggling for Islam another war is being declared as well, the one against ignorance, injustice and poverty, a war without compromises and setbacks. ..."

pages 45-46


"... In one of the thesis for an Islamic order today we have stated that it is a natural function of the Islamic order to gather all Muslims and Muslim communities throughout the world into one. Under present conditions, this desire means a struggle for creating a great Islamic federation from Morocco to Indonesia, from the tropical Africa to the Central Asia. ..."

page 46


"... Panislamism always came from the very heart of the Muslim peoples, nationalism was always imported stuff. ..."

page 49


"... But, under the leadership of Zionists, started an action in Palestine which is not only inhumane and ruthless but also shortsighted and adventuresome. This politics takes in account only temporary ratio of power and forgets about overall ratio of power between Jews and Muslims in the world. This politics in Palestine is a provocation to all Muslims of the world. Jerusalem is not only a question of Palestinians, neither is it a question of Arabs only. It is a question of all the Muslim nations. TO KEEP JERUSALEM, THE JEWS WOULD HAVE TO DEFEAT ISLAM AND THE MUSLIMS, AND THAT - THANK GOD - IS OUTSIDE THEIR POWER."

page 53


"... We would like to distinguish between Jews and Zionists, but only if Jews themselves find strength to find the difference. We hope that the military victories, which they had against quarrelling Arab regimes, (not against Arabs or against Muslims) will not blur their minds. We hope that they will eliminate confrontation which they made by them- selves, so the new road is open to a life on the common ground of Palestine. If they, though, continue on the road of arrogance, which is more likely, then for the whole Islam movement, and FOR ALL MUSLIMS THERE IS BUT ONE SOLUTION: TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT, TO STRENGTHEN AND BROADEN IT, FROM DAY TO DAY, FROM YEAR TO YEAR, NO MATTER THE VICTIMS AND NO MATTER THE TIME it may last, until they are forced to RETURN EVERY INCH OF THE OCCUPIED LAND. EVERY NEGOTIATION AND EVERY COMPROMISE ON THIS FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE FOR OUR BROTHERS IN PALESTINE, WILL BE A TREASON WHICH MAY DESTROY THE VERY CORE OF THE MORAL SYSTEM OF OUR WORLD.

These are not new laws of our new Islam politics toward Christians and Jews, not new laws dictated by the new political situation. They are just the practical conclusions taken from the Islamic recognition of Christians and Jews which come right from the Qu'ran (Qu'ran, 29/45, 2/136, 5/47-49)

pages 53-54

 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 18:12
Taken out of context first of all and I am not a fan of Izetbegovic either, I put him Milosevic and Tudjman in the same category of war criminals alongside mladic, and karadzic.

Islamofascism, oh I am so sure a population of 2 million on whose sides 70%of the deathtoll occured and out of that amount over 70% were civilian deaths. Oh yeah right.


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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 18:12
So sorry, Tito or whoever never intended that sort of trash to govern people's lives. Especially in the way Izetbegovic got into power. Do we need to get into how crazy Franco Tudjman was or did he kill enough of your people too that I don't need to?
 
I'll mention this however. Krajina, populated by Serbs in the 1500s by the Austrians after it was devestated by war, they had lived there and were put into Tito's Croatia at the creation of the communist Yugoslavia. Krajina was CLEANSED of Serbs through operations Flash and Storm. Hundreds of thousands, the largest single act of "ethnic cleansing" in the Balkans was done here. Who is held accountable? I'm sure we both know Franco was an Ustashe dreamer.
 
So please between Izetbegovic and Tudjman, Milosevic was a saint. And this is me saying this, a Romanian and I consider myself a Royalist. So I spit in the eye of every communist. If I could, i'd go back to my country, take every former communist piece of trash in our parliment sucking up my country dry with their corruption and impale them in a circle around the Capitol building. I have no love for communists.
 
But going back to Bosnia. Izetbegovic simply created a rebel state under the Serb's feet. People who wanted to remain part of Yugoslavia. Why should they have to live in Izetbegovic's country when they want to live in Yugoslavia? And again as opposed to the "CNN-truth" of things, the Serbs did NOT take lands over from the Bosniaks. In fact if you look at the Dayton accord agreement many Serbs were gerrymandered out of being in Republika Sprska.
 
"However, Milosevic was an a--hole, and his policies and actions are directly intertwined with the deceleration of independence approved by Washington. If he had not revoked autonomy and killed innocent people that would not have happened (again not implying that the KLA did not do their share of bad things after the outbreak of violence)."
 
Killed innocent people? Again what are you talking about? Yes innocent people die in war, they die in every war but if you are suggesting he went in and wanted to kill civilian Albanians this is non sense.
 
"

The battle of Kosovo

Noel Malcolm
 "
 
Oh great a Noel Malcolm article. "The Russians did it the Russians did it!" Oh please, other then rubbish speculation that article is nothing but bed time stories for little children. Get out of here with that non-sense.
 
So everything was peaceful until the Russians and the Serbs invented some fake history so they can opress the rich nation of Albania. Riiight.
 
To HEROI:

Learn how to quote stuff! That is a pain in the ass to read. One thing I caught was that 1.5 Million Albanians were kicked out of 1.9? This is non-sense. Show me some proof of this because I don't even think your fellow Albanians here agree with you there. And the Albanians fled because the KLA told them to in part and because the NATO bombs which sometimes hit Albanians as well.
 
As for Milosevic planning genocide? Do you have any proof? Because today we have NO single document order or anything similar to it suggesting Milosevic planned genocide ANYWHERE.
 
And Racak was NOT a massacre. All the forensic teams of the UN that went in concluded it wasn't. But you say there is video tape of this? I'd love to see it. I'm sure we all do.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 18:15
"Taken out of context first of all and I am not a fan of Izetbegovic either, I put him Milosevic and Tudjman in the same category of war criminals alongside mladic, and karadzic."

Perhaps Tito read the "out of context" Serb version of it ;) Which is why he put him in jail. Oh come on es_bih you're just being silly now. Please give us the context then.
 
"Islamofascism, oh I am so sure a population of 2 million on whose sides 70%of the deathtoll occured and out of that amount over 70% were civilian deaths. Oh yeah right. "
 
What are the statistics for this? Oh and Mujehadeen and civilians with guns aren't really civilian deaths. I love that. Un-uniformed combatants fight the Serbs and when they get their rear end handed to them "oh man why are you killing civilians!? You're evil!"
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 18:18
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 18:19
I dont understand,your post is completely out of the topic,and is to long, and is very inconsiderate to facts and reality, it talks about Arabs and Muslims,it has nothing to do with our topic here,you are welcome to quote me and debate on what i have writen down,i am not gona bother reading all this crap you have posted here.
 
And what was the crap about Serbs having being in Bosnia before the Muslims?You are completely out of touch with history of the region,Serbs and Bosniaks are mainly slavic peoples,which have both come at the same time in the balkans mixing or pushing local populations further down.
 
 
Unless the moderators clean up the topic of your posts,i am not gona bother reply to you again.Come to your senses kid!!
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 18:22
I actually replied to you specifically as well. If you'd actually read my post you'll see that.
 
Edit: Can we get a thread about Bosnia/Croatia? Srebrenica specifically and maybe Krajina.


Edited by Carpathian Wolf - 26-Jun-2008 at 18:31
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