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Spartakus
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Topic: Anti-Semitism and ...Semitism. Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 01:47 |
I wonder :
Arabic ,Hebrew and Ancient Egyptian languages are Semitic.Ok.
Semitic is sth which has to do with languages.Ok.
How then anti-Semitism is only related to Jews?I mean ,Arabs are Semitic ,so by accusing someone as an Anti-Semite ,is like accusing him/her for hating Arabs,Ancient Egyptians ,Ancient Phoenicians and Jews.Moreover ,how can someone be a Semite ,when he does not speak a Semitic language ,aka most of the Jewish population in the US?
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Ahmed The Fighter
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Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 06:49 |
I always asking myself this question,and almost of the jewish population in the world are non-semitic,and not related to old jews.
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ok ge
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Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 07:04 |
Originally posted by Spartakus
Moreover ,how can someone be a Semite ,when he does not speak a Semitic language ,aka most of theJewish populationin the US? |
Well, many Jews in he US are lectured basic Hebrew, but there is a major section that is clueless to Hebrew except ritual terminologies.
I guess the key for the Semitic thing to the Jewish population in the USA is ethnically Semeticism. It is extremely unusual for a Jew to think of himself originally as a Semeticized Jew.
I totally agree with you that Semeticism is a language connection rather than racial one. Even historically, Aramaic speakers were of various ethnic backgrounds stretching from Iraq to Canaan land. A typical result of language expansion. Similarly, Jews and Arabs who might have started as pure races are now highly mixed to the degree that it is incorrect to assume racial purity to all Jews and Arabs.
Even Pharonic Egypt similarly became a generic mixing pool. It is narratted that Ramesis II forced the Egyptianization of Libo berber tribes that were inhabiting the border of Egypts on the Libyan side. Also, Heksus and Libo (berber) tribes ruled Egypt and inhabited Egypt. Add to this later, Greek, Romans and more till Arabic replaced Coptic in Egypt.
Edited by ok ge - 19-Apr-2007 at 07:14
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D.J. Kaufman
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Zagros
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Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 07:06 |
Ancient egytian was not semetic.
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ok ge
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Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 07:15 |
True. I missed that every Semetic language is Afro-Asiatic, but not every Afro-Asiatic is Semetic.
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D.J. Kaufman
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 10:30 |
Good point... The word semitic should not be monopolized in the use of refering to Juwish people
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Spartakus
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Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 13:25 |
Originally posted by ok ge
Well, many Jews in he US are lectured basic Hebrew, but there is a major section that is clueless to Hebrew except ritual terminologies.
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This is debatable.If i learn Hebrew,for example, that makes me a Semite,even if my mother tongue is Hellenic?Shouldn't Hebrew or Arabic be one's mother tongue so we can say he is a Semite?
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Yiannis
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Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 13:40 |
Originally posted by Spartakus
This is debatable.If i learn Hebrew,for example, that makes me a Semite,even if my mother tongue is Hellenic? |
Also debatable, I mean if you were born abroad by Greek parents but never bothered to learn Greek, would you still consider yourself a Greek, would others consider you as one?
I guess an obvious answer is that this is a matter of self-determinism.
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Spartakus
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Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 13:46 |
But isn't the term "Semite" sth purely linguistic compared to the term "Hellen/Greek"?
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Ovidius
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Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 13:55 |
semitic formed as a word long before Anti-Smitism.
Anti-Semitism is a word that formed in German Literature and formed due to the erroneous use of the word semitic. Where semitic was used as a word to mean Jewish, not someone who speaks a semitic language.
So anti-semitism refers only to Anti-Jew simply because of how it formed as a word in the first place.
If you want to be really pedantic about it. The whole word is a mismeaning.
Anti as a prefix does not mean 'against', it is actually supposed to mean 'in the place of'. So that Anti-Christ is not the 'opposite' of Christ, it is one that is like Christ, but isn't Christ. So an Anti-Semite would be a Semite, that is like a Semite, but not.
Anyhow, its all to do with the etymological creation of the word within German Culture.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 15:56 |
Originally posted by Zagros
Ancient egytian was not semetic. |
You're probably right, but there are still some holdouts that claim it was.
The trouble with taxonomy is that it's always difficult to eliminate subjective criteria.
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Spartakus
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Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 04:56 |
Originally posted by Ovidius
semitic formed as a word long before Anti-Smitism.
Anti-Semitism is a word that formed in German Literature and formed due to the erroneous use of the word semitic. Where semitic was used as a word to mean Jewish, not someone who speaks a semitic language.
So anti-semitism refers only to Anti-Jew simply because of how it formed as a word in the first place.
If you want to be really pedantic about it. The whole word is a mismeaning.
Anti as a prefix does not mean 'against', it is actually supposed to mean 'in the place of'. So that Anti-Christ is not the 'opposite' of Christ, it is one that is like Christ, but isn't Christ. So an Anti-Semite would be a Semite, that is like a Semite, but not.
Anyhow, its all to do with the etymological creation of the word within German Culture.
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It was formed in German literature and culture ,yes, but since the term is still used in a large degree today and since there is the term "Semite",shouldn't we examine it in a more scientific way?
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Ovidius
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Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 07:52 |
Examine a word scientifically? Its a cultural creation, the only way to understand the word more clearly is to disect German Literature and perhaps use Reception theory to try and analyse the spread of the word in some way. There are many words with meanings that are not based on the literal construction on the word, but on a culturally formed understanding of a word. I don't see how you can examine it further really?
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Spartakus
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Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 16:34 |
There are many words with meanings that are not based on the literal construction ,yes.But ,here ,we are talking about 2 linguistic terms :anti-Semite and Semite, which are both used today in scientific bibliography and the Jews ,thus creating confusion.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
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Ovidius
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Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 16:46 |
How does it cause confusion to anyone?
Anti-Semitism in most languages means Anti-Jewish. It is a word deep-rooted in history to mean anti-Jewish and causes no such confusion.
Setmitic means, someone who speaks a Semitic language. It is a technical word, used mostly by Historians and linguists. Its really not a word in common usage, nor is it something that many people understand. The origin of this word and the specific meaning are actually quite complex. Its the derivative of Shem or something like that?
I just don't understand your point at all here... Anti-Semitism/Anti-Semitic is a word that was adopted within language cultures, it cannot be changed. Semitic as a word is just something that is not understood by the common public. You want people to change and use 'anti-Jewish' instead. Or perhaps, like most people, we should just form a new word for the languages of the Middle East/ or refer to them individually. 'Afro-Asiatic' I believe is the other way of calling these languages. Not that they need to be grouped together.
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Spartakus
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Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 16:53 |
Well,i am a little confused or else i would not have the need to open a topic.And just because it is old ,this does not mean that it is beyond critisicm.My point is ,since we have a word which describes scientifically a person(semite),why do we use a word with a non-scientific meaning ,to describe it's opposite (anti-Semite)?
Edited by Spartakus - 21-Apr-2007 at 16:54
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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ok ge
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Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 10:41 |
Actually anti-semitism is a confusing term. The wrong use of Semite in the anti-semite clause had made many people think that the only Semites are Jews and I have met multiple individual who were unaware that Semitism includes non-Jews.
The other issue is, is Semitism a language and cultural connection or a blood connection? Normally, we know that Semites in the Middle East are not genetically homogenous, so at least for now, Semitism is not a blood or racial connection. Yet, majority of Jews insist that every single Jew has a Semitic blood drop in him. Whether this is true or not, that is debatable indeed.
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D.J. Kaufman
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Ovidius
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Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 12:12 |
Why is it so confusing? I don't understanding what is so difficult?
Semite - a reletively new word, not fully understood by people in the 19th century was used by a minority of German writers who formed the word 'anti-semitism', and the meaning of the word was taken to mean 'against Jews'.
Its just to do with the traditional evolution of language and spread of culture between European nations. How is it complicated at all? There are so many words that have shifted meaning since the 1780's its difficult to keep count.
It is one of the reasons some Post-Modernists believe Historians cannot intepret works from the past, because of the differences in meanings/emphasis/strength of words that have changed over time in an unquantifiable mannor.
Anti-Semitism developed within German and then English to mean Anti-Jewish. I'd argue very strongle that people did not know of the word 'Semite' until after they broke down the word 'anti-semite'.
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Spartakus
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Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 15:33 |
Why is it so confusing? I don't understanding what is so difficult?
If it is not so difficult,then can you please show us the scientific opposite of the word Semite?
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Ovidius
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Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 12:30 |
The Scientific Opposite of the Word Semite?
Well 'Non-Semite' ? Its a Proper Noun, it doesn't have an opposite as such.
If you mean a word for someone who is against 'Semites', there isn't one. But then there isn't really a word for anti-British or Anti-American. These are not words, merely creations that use 'anti' to mean opposite, which anti does not mean, it means 'in the place of'. But heh, I'm just making this increasingly confusing. If you want to say anti- someone who speaks a semitic language, just pick out the semitic peoples and say anti-arab, anti-jewish etcetc.
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