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Zagros
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Topic: Which country has the best fighter pilots? Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 10:28 |
The fact that they were sabotaged is a fact, by whom is not exactly clear, but my bet would be the departing US technicians since they had expert knowledge of the systems and used that knowledge to sabotage specific components and I highl doubt Iranian peronnel would just sabotage off their own back because of some loyalty to America and revolutionaries have nothing to fear from air to air missiles and would have trashed the planes rather than strategically sabotage them.
This embargo was to have a especially severe long-term effect on the Tomcat fleet, since the embargo prevented the delivery of any spares. In addition, by August of 1979, all 79 of the F-14A Tomcats had supposedly been sabotaged so that they could no longer fire their Phoenix missiles. According to various accounts, this was done either by departing Grumman technicians, by Iranian Air Force personnel friendly to the US shortly after the fall of the Shah, or even by Iranian revolutionaries in an attempt to prevent operations by an Air Force perceived to be too pro-Western.
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Your second point addressed to me: Yes, the regular army were a proper and professional army whereas the Basij didn't care about their own lives, without their advances Iran would have fared no worse in its offensives, though thtey were crucial in holding the initial invasion.
Edited by Zagros - 10-Mar-2007 at 10:29
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 11:38 |
I would definitly say that the US had a part in the sabotage. I think it was mentioned on the History channel.
Best fighter pilots, I'd say US. Not because of avionics, but the amount of training, scenarios and theory, plus they probably clock the most flight times as the US has the money to do so. Though that last part is speculation.
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Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 12:33 |
Sabaotage? The planes are still flying! If the technicians wanted to sabotage the planes all they had to do was take an axe to the fuselage and the planes would never fly again. It would take all of 30 seconds.
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Cryptic
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Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 20:57 |
Originally posted by Zagros
The fact that they were sabotaged is a fact, by whom is not exactly clear, but my bet would be the departing US technicians since they had expert knowledge of the systems |
I am with Spartacus. There was no sabotage conspiracy. Instead what happened was...
- Both Tomcats and Phoenix missiles are very complex and notoriously difficult to maintain.
- Only a small number of Iranians were skilled in these areas. Most are pretty westernized and none are religous fundamentalists.
Then...
-Revolution happens. Scores of the technicians flee Iran. Others are imprisoned by Ayatollah's followers because they are "contaminated".
-Planes and missiles sit idle for months. Ayatollah's followers (and Iran) then desperatly needs the planes.
-Technicians are freed, but most of the maintanance work was done by Grumman. There are also no spares.
So.... Technicians claim planes and missiles were "sabotaged". This is far safer than admitting that they are incapable making the systems work due to both their marginal experience and bad decisions by the fundamentalists.
Edited by Cryptic - 10-Mar-2007 at 20:59
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Zagros
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Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 22:19 |
Originally posted by Sparten
Sabaotage? The planes are still flying! If the technicians wanted to sabotage the planes all they had to do was take an axe to the fuselage and the planes would never fly again. It would take all of 30 seconds.
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After they were fixed of course, they were not involved in combat until some time after the war had started. I will take the word of Iranian Airforce experts such as Tom cooper any day over the opinings on this forum. If they had taken an axe to the fuselage, they would have been detained and tried.
Edited by Zagros - 10-Mar-2007 at 22:21
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 00:35 |
Tom Cooper dose not say that sabotage occured, he only relates the story that it did. Bit of a difference.
Cryptic has hit the nail on then head. We don't know what happened, but we can make an educated guess, and the lack of trained technicians, pilots and WSO's for what is an extremely complex beast was the main reason the IIAF did not use the Tomcats for a while.
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 09:47 |
I did not say the Iranians couldn't operate them, obviously they can since they are still in service. However the Iranians were clearly unable to perform the maintainence of the Tomcats and its associated weapon systems without the support of the Americans (which is why they had "operated them without problems for several years"), which of course explians why the Tomcats were made flight worthy by cannibalising half the fleet.
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Zagros
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 10:18 |
He doesn't specifically say it, other sources do, but he refers to them having to be "made operational", why would they have to be made operational? If what you say is true wouldn't he have said that the Iranian ground crews/pilots "learned to operate them"? They should have been pretty much combat ready. Most sources agree that they were sabotaged, you don't - you simply say that the Iranians couldn't operate them when they had had these aircraft for several years already without any problems.
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Batu
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 14:26 |
Greek and Turkish pilots have too much experience in dogfighting,right Hellios
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Hellios
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 20:34 |
Originally posted by Batu
Greek and Turkish pilots have too much experience in dogfighting,right Hellios |
Lol, many mock dogfights.
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Kerimoglu
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Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 15:16 |
Dude, when u sit in F 22, no need of skills, just basic ones are enough. Also, those comiecaze guys hitting the World Trade Center are the best as far
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 17:09 |
Yeah, now imagine what those skilled pilots can do in a F-22? They are taught alot of different skills, and are trained well. With the F-22, seems like they are almost unbeatable. I say seems, because there hasn't been a true fight with them, though they have done alot of training against other Interceptors, like the F-15.
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maqsad
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Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 19:05 |
Hmm..two pages and not a squeak about the PAF even from Sparten the military buff. I
dunno about now but in the 60s, 70s and 80s the Pakistani Air force was
top notch. Mainly because of the quality of its pilots but also because
the fighter jets were among the best in the world(back then not now).
In the 1965 Indo-Pak war 104 Indian Air force planes were downed while 19 PAF aircraft were lost in combat.
In the 67 Arab-Israeli war PAF sent its pilots[but not its own planes]
to war against Israel. They scored a 10 to 0 kill ratio. Eizer Weizman,
then Chief of Israeli Air Force said once about PAF Air Marshal Noor Khan :
"...He is a formidable person and I am glad that he is Pakistani and
not Egyptian..."
http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm
71 Indo-pak war which was sort of a civil war too PAF downed 51 Indian aircraft versus 17 of its own. This is what US Gen Chuch Yaeger had to say about the paki air force, he himself counted all the kills they made:
Originally posted by Chuck Yeager
"This airforce(the PAF), is second to none" |
Originally posted by Chuck Yeager
"The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below." "They were really good, aggressive dogfighters and proficient in gunnery and air combat tactics. I was damned impressed. Those guys just lived and breathed flying. " |
Afghan war in the '80s had 8 Afghan/Soviet Aircraft shot down with a loss of one PAF F16 which was rumored to be friendly fire. 2000 Sorties were flown by Afghans and Soviets into Pakistani territory. Planes were scrambled for each incursion I presume and in most cases the Afghan/Soviet planes must have flown back after being warned by their bases to come back. Couple of tail fins from that war, kept as trophies:
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CHAUDRY
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Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 20:15 |
***Pakistaan Fizayaa***
10:0 kill ratio, against israel, dude!
About the same, against ussr/afghanistan
Edited by CHAUDRY - 12-Mar-2007 at 20:19
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Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 00:59 |
Yes PAF did very well in 65 and 71 and the Afghan wars. But, in my defence I was talking mostly about Iran.
PAF pilots are excellent. Okay heres one way to find out who is the best. Could anybody get me the averahe flying time per year for the pilots of each AF.
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Cezar
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Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 12:54 |
10 to nil against the IAF in 67!? How many PAF pilots were there and how many aircraft they shot down? It looks like propaganda to me.
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Cryptic
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Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 14:07 |
Originally posted by Cezar
10 to nil against the IAF in 67!? How many PAF pilots were there and how many aircraft they shot down? It looks like propaganda to me. |
I agree. This source lists 12 Israeli aircraft lost to all causes in 1967. That means that Pakistanis would have had to of shot down 10 out of 12 of the total Israeli aircraft lost. This does not sound right mathematically.
I remember reading another source stating that Pakistanis who flew in combat downed 2 Israeli jets. Even with the smaller kill number, Pakistani pilots performed far better proportionaly than Syrian, Egyptian etc pilots.
Originally posted by Sparten
Okay heres one way to find out who is the best. Could anybody get me the averahe flying time per year for the pilots of each AF.
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I dont have details, but I remember reading somewhere that western pilots average at least 120 hours per year and that 80 hours is the minimum to keep somewhat proficient in tactics etc. . Evidently anything less is just maintaining basic flying skills
Edited by Cryptic - 13-Mar-2007 at 14:28
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Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 14:40 |
PAF pilots averaged more than 350 hours back in the 1980s. Of course that was the height of the Afghan war and there were lots of CAPS.
As for the PAF vs IDF
5Jun67 |
1 Sqn RJAF |
Hunter F.Mk.73 |
S. Azam |
30mm |
Mystre IVA |
IDF/AF (pilot Boleh) |
7Jun67 |
4 or 7 Sqn IrAF |
Hunter F.Mk.59 702 |
S.Azam |
30mm |
Mirage IIICJ |
IDF/AF (pilot Dror) |
7Jun67 |
4 or 7 Sqn IrAF |
Hunter F.Mk.59 702 |
Azam |
30mm |
Vautour II |
IDF/AF (pilot Inbar) |
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maqsad
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Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 15:10 |
So the 10 to 0 is propaganda most likely. Its more like 3 to 0 and that is still pretty good. I would assume that the 8 pakistani pilots that were flying for Syria in the '67 war were cream of the crop since firstly they had been on training missions before in Syria and secondly they must have clocked a lot more than the 350 hours per year PAF average which would put their skill level way up in the top 10% of the PAF. Maybe even higher. The pilots they downed were most likely just average or below average by IAF standards.
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Cezar
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Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 13:30 |
Well, Sparten, then the 10:0 is a joke, or what?. Two pilots, three kills. And they were fighting on the "mild" area. Good job anyway, especially for the guy who dropped the Mirage. The Vautour is way too inferior, even to the Hunter.
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