for that time the name "Barbars" was given the tribes that had not greek culture.
That is completely true becouse in olimpic games were allowed to participate only the tribes with greek culture and not the others one
for that time the name "Barbars" was given the tribes that had not greek culture.
That is completely true becouse in olimpic games were allowed to participate only the tribes with greek culture and not the others one
And there is the contradiction. They participated in the Olympics. We have already analyzed this.
really you have analised it well?
i hope so but i am asking you why alexander 1 (first) was not allowed to participated in the olimpic games in that times?
but lets go on.......what Demosten had said to Philip when he went to qonquer Greece...
:-you are not a greek but even that not a good barbar like the others you would have for honor to be.....
Demosteni is known like a anti Philip man with his oratories
really you have analised it well?
i hope so but i am asking you why alexander 1 (first) was not allowed to participated in the olimpic games in that times?
Yes, it has been analyzed well; just read the first pages of this thread. Alexander I participated in the Olympic games.
Originally posted by amanti
what Demosten had said to Philip when he went to qonquer Greece...
First, it's Demosthenes; and second, Demosthenes' words have been debated a lot in this very thread. It is boring saying the same things over and over again, without bringing anything new to the discussion.
I never said that. I just pointed out that the Royal House and the natives are two different things.
So far, since their language is FINALY classed as IEGB (Indoeuropean greek branch) with ISO code XMK, there is no strong evidence they were something else that was hellenized.
However, this is irrelavant to this topic andi don't want to end up with a warning, because of playarism or thread take over.
i dont know, but somehow i ''feel'' sth about the lifestyle issue? there're some historical examples it seems, which show that ls is essential for us to see the genealogy of a people.
this guy on that macedonia, greek name issue gave me sth to think about...eg about the hungarians, perhaps?
and that proto-greek language: the greek say macedonians spoke greek...their language was similar, but again the celtic and teutonic lngs were also similar back then...?
and that proto-greek language: the greek say macedonians spoke greek...their language was similar, but again the celtic and teutonic lngs were also similar back then...?
It is not the Greeks specifically that believe that. The linguists have coined the language with an ISO CODE. The artifacts support this. Some decades ago there were no findings in the pre-attic language of Macedonia, so some were skeptical that the native language was Greek. However, in our days, the inscriptions are thousands and amongst them there are such written in the local dialect which is a variant of Western Greek.
There are over 8500 inscriptions now from Macedonia on the Cornell university archives. You can draw your conclutions and please continue that issue on the linguistic forum.
Originally posted by krater
this man called ''highlander'', i guess it couldn't be the ''same'' as ''jesus'' meaning ''god saves''...
i mean SOME PEOPLE would argue about Hughlander's and Jesus' ''objective'' existance?
I don't get what you're trying to say or at least this is irrelevant no matter why that guy called that way. He was not a god or saviour. Just a leader of a tribe that migrated due to a physical dissaster known in mythology as "Deucalions flood". He was no superman.
But please do not touch this thread, cause i'm telling you we're gonna get warned sooner or later. I have personally asked one of the moderators to remove or transfer (to the appropriate threads) my latest posts.
about the3rd philippic: are there some other ancient sources saying the mk(gr) slaves were of no good ''quality''?
the mks and grs did trade, how the gr people could've believed that the mk slaves were no good, i mean the athenians knew what the greek enemies were saying of the greek slaves...
i think i heard the term ''barbarians'' derogatory means those who cannot talk (properly) (while speaking they sounded like: ''bara..bara..bara''...) ?
for that time the name "Barbars" was given the tribes that had not greek culture. That is completely true becouse in olimpic games were allowed to participate only the tribes with greek culture and not the others one
could a religious festival serve as a nation's determinator? moreover cause we know that the ancient macedonians sometimes participated at the olympics, and sometimes they didn't...
I've also read time and again oponents of Macedonians being part of the Greek ethnos using ancient quotes that distinguish Macedonians from Hellenes. The vast majority of references could be explained as political alliance or rhetoric by the author, depending on each example. On that basis, then the following "nations" or "tribes" should be excluded from being considered Hellenes;
"When the estrangement which had arisen between the Athenians and the Hellenes became noised abroad, there came to Athens ambassadors from the Persians and from the Hellenes. [Diodoros of Sicily 11.28.1]
"...the Hellenes gathered in congress decreed to make common cause with the Athenians and advanced to Plataia in a body..." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.29.1]
"He soothed the Athenians' pride by promising them... that the Hellenes would accept their leadership..." [Plutarch, Themistokles 7]
"...the Athenians, because of their policy of occupying with colonists the lands of those whom they subdued, had a bad reputation with the Hellenes;..." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.23.4]
"And we decided upon a twofold revolt, from the Hellenes and the Athenians, not to aid the latter in harming the former... " [Thukydides, 3.13; Oration of the Mytilenaians]
"When the Athenians attacked the Hellenes, they, the Plataians... Atticized. [Thukydides, 3.62; Theban Accusations]
"The Athenians... by this denerous act they recovered the goodwill of the Hellenes and made their own leadership more secure." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.29.8]
"And this was the first naval victory that the city [Athens] had against the Hellenes, after the destruction." [Plutarch, Phokion 6]
Spartans/Lakedaimonians:
"...the Lakedaimonians, fearful lest Themistokles should devise some great evil against them and the Hellenes, honoured him with double the numbers of gifts..." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.27.3]
"In this year [475 BCE] the Lakedaimonians... were resentful; consequently they were incensed at the Hellenes who had fallen away from them and continued to threaten them with the appropriate punishment." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.50.1]
"In a single battle the Peloponnesians and their allies may be able to defy all the Hellenes, but they can not carry a whole war..." [Thukydides 1.141; Oration of Pericles]
"When the Eleians not only paid no heed to them [the Lakedaimonians] but even accused them besides of enslaving the Hellenes, they dispatched Pausanias, the other of the two kings, against them with 4,000 soldiers." [Diodoros of Sicily 14.17.6]
"But Pausanias, the king of the Lakedaimonians, being jealous of Lysandros and observing that Sparta was in ill repute among the Hellenes, marched forth with a strong army and on his arrival in Athens brought about a reconciliation between the men of the city and the exiles. [Diodoros of Sicily 14.33.6]
"He says... the Lakedaimonians... gave to the Hellenes to taste the sweet drink of freedom..." [Plutarch, Lysandros 13]
"Agesilaos was accused... that he exposed the city [Sparta] as an accomplice in the crimes against the Hellenes." [Plutarch, Agesilaos 26]
"...the Lakedaimonians, who were hard put to it by the double war, that against the Hellenes and that against the Persians, dispatched their admiral Antalkidas to Artaxerxes to treat for peace." [Diodoros of Sicily 14.110.2]
"The Lakedaimonians... used their allies roughly and harshly, stirring up, besides, unjust and insolent wars against the Hellenes,..." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.1.3]
"At this time the kings of the Lakedaimonians were at variance with each other on matters of policy. Agesipolis, who was a peaceful and just man and, furthermore, excelled in wisdom, declared that they should abide by their oaths and not enslave the Hellenes contrary to the common agreements." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.16.4]
"Thus, the Hellenes were wondering what the state of the Lakedaimonian army would be had it been commanded by Agesilaos or... the old Leonidas." [Plutarch, Agis 14]
"Even though the Lakedaimonians had combated the Hellenes many times only one of their kings had ever died in action..." [Plutarch, Agis 21]
Greeks of Asia Minor, the Aegean islands, Krete, Cyprus, Central Greece, the Ionian Sea and the West:
"The Athenians... reasoned that, if the Ionians were given new homes by the Hellenes acting in common they would no longer look upon Athens as their mother-city." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.37.3]
"...and as for the Hellenes, they were emboldened by the promise of the Ionians, and... came down eagerly in a body from Salamis to the shore in preparation for the sea- battle." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.17.4]
"Now the Samians and Milesians had decided unanimously beforehand to support the Hellenes..." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.36.2]
"...although the Ionians thought that the Hellenes would be encouraged, the result was the very opposite." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.36.2]
"When the Samians and Milesians put in their appearance, the Hellenes plucked up courage,... and Aiolians participated in the battle,..." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.36.4-5]
"When the Aiolians and Ionians had heard these promises, they resolved to take the advice of the Hellenes..." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.37.2]
"The Kretans, when the Hellenes sent to ask aid from them... acted as follows..." [Herodotos 7.169]
"The King [of Persia], now that his difference with the Hellenes was settled, made ready his armament for the war against Cyprus. For Evagoras had got possession of almost the whole of Cyprus and gathered strong armaments, because [king] Artaxerxes was distracted by the war against the Hellenes." [Diodoros of Sicily 14.110.5]
"The Lokrians... when they learned that Leonidas had arrived at Thermopylai, changed their minds and went over to the Hellenes." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.4.6]
"Now the Phokians had chosen the cause of the Hellenes, but seeing that they were unable to offer resistance... fled for safety to the rugged regions about Mount Parnassos." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.14.1]
"The Thebans, anticipating the arrival of a large army from Hellas to aid the Lakedaimonians [controlling the citadel of Thebes, the Kadmeia], dispatched envoys to Athens to remind them... and to request them to come with all their forces and assist them in reducing the Kadmeia before the arrival of the Lakedaimonians." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.25.4]
"All the Hellenes gladly received the proposal [of Artaxerxes, the Persian King], and all the cities agreed to a general peace except Thebes; for the Thebans alone, being engaged in bringing Boiotia under a single confederacy, were not admitted by the Hellenes because of the general determination to have the oaths and treaties made city by city." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.50.4]
"Since the Lakedaimonians made peace with all the Hellenes, they were in war only with the Thebans..." [Plutarch, Pelopidas 20]
"... the recorders of the Amphictyons [the hieromnemones] brought charges against the Phokians and... if they did not obey, they should incur the common hatred of the Hellenes." [Diodoros of Sicily 16.23.3]
"And Gelon replied with vehemence: `Hellenes,... you exhort me to join in league with you against the barbarian...' [Herodotos, 7.157]
"Gelon [the ruler of the Greek city of Syrakousai]... was making ready... to join the Hellenes in the war against the Persians." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.26.4]
"This is how they (the Kerkyraians) eluded the reproaches of the Hellenes. [Herodotos, 7.168]
but weren't the greeks in sicily THE hellenes living in a foreign land?
Sorry for the delay in response, but, I was on vacation, and it took me a while to discover this thread. I thought that it would be placed in the European/Mediterranean subforum, not here.
Before I began, I issue a warning to Istor and Patrinos, to write in English, otherwise face disciplinery action.
Now to begin:
Unfortunately, prehistory gives us no evidence which can be considered as concerning the Macedonian people. We have to descend relatively low on the ladder of history, to the 5th century B.C., to hear the first mention of the name "Macedonian" from the father of history, Herodotus....
Actually we can begin even earlier than Herodotus, but I'll just address the information you've presented for now.
Herodotus , who, indeed, identifies it with the Doric tribe. He saysfor "TheDoric tribe"..
For in the days of king Deucalion1 it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian.
The same historian mentions that the Spartans, the Corinthians, the Sicyonians, the Epidaurians and the Troezenians, all from the Peloponnese, took part in the naval battle of Salamis.
The following took part in the war: from the Peloponnese, the Lacedaemonians provided sixteen ships; the Corinthians the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen ships, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezenians five, the Hermioneans three. All of these except the Hermioneans are Dorian and Macedonian and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region. The Hermioneans are Dryopians, driven out of the country now called Doris by Herakles and the Malians.
Agreed, the texts are talking about the Dorian tribe. However, it must be pointed out that the term used in this translation for "Macedonian" is the term Makednon, which in English would probably be translated as "Makednian". This term is only used in reference to the Dorians, in the two passages you cited, and not anywhere else. It is never used for "Macedonian" in reference to the true Macedonians. All other references to Macedonians uses the root form "Makedo-", hence these are mutually exclusive terms. Dorians were Makednian, not Macedonian.
He adds that the Macedonians considered themselves to be Greeks and he too is sure of their Greek nationality. The other Greeks thought the same, as is evident from the decision which was taken by the judges at the Olympic Games to allow Alexander the First to compete there.There are the known quotes such as
Inform yoor King that a Greek,The king of the Macedonians,received you with frienship
But, he says nothing of the sort. He only claims that the Macedonian king was Greek. He says nothing about the Macedonian people.
There are several things that need to be pointed out regarding the "Olympic episode"
1. Despite his Greek name, Alexander was written off as a "barbarian" by the Greek athletes, the cream of the crop of Greek society.
a. Hence, it was a popular view that the Macedonians were considered barbarians.
b. it was not enough to have a Greek name. They were not impressed that this Macedonian had a Greek name. In their point of view barbarians can bare Greek names.
2. Alexander "proved" that he was a Greek by showing that he was descended from a recognized Greek family.
a. Alexander had to prove he was a Greek.
b. He could not use his Macedonian identity to demonstrate his Greekness.
c. He could only prove his Greekness by claiming his origin from a Greek land (i.e. Argos) and family (Temenid).
Now some comments on Herodotus, himself. When one reads his text, one wonders why Herodotus takes great pains to "prove" that Alexander was a Greek. He does not use the same language in regards to Greek peoples and individuals. In other words he does not go out to "prove" that those peoples and individuals already recognized as "Greek" were Greek. Herodotus, therefore writes to "prove" that Alexander was a Greek, because he knew that his Greek readers would be skeptical of the Macedonian king's claim. From their perspective, Alexander was a barbarian because he ruled a barbarian land.
These doubts can be repudiated by the following remarks:
1) It is difficult to believe that, at that time, a Greek royal household was in a position to conquer and rule over an alien people which spoke a different language, while surrounded by a local military aristocracy-also speaking a different language-which never desired to remove the foreign ruler, It is not only nalve to accept such an idea, it would also compel us to accept a fact for which one could not easily supply an analogy from some other country.
One that comes immediately to mind, is the Russian foundation of their first early state. The Slavic tribes became weary of war among themselves so they invited the Varangians (Swedes) to be their rulers. We note that the earliest Russian rulers bore Scandinavian names. We also note that a "conquest" was not involved.
2) Even if we do accept this rather improbable fact, what should have happened as a natural consequence would have been the linguistic assimilation of the Greek royal household by its subjects, and never the reverse. What always happens in the history of the nations is the linguistic absorption of the foreign rulers by the local people.Even when the rulers comprise an entire nation , it is sufficient for them to be less in number.
But that's just it. These "foreign rulers" were not alone. We know that there were Greek colonies on the coast of Macedonia such as Pydna and Methone as well as other "Greeks inhabiting the country" (Thucydides 4.124.1). It is therefore not necessary even to put the Macedonians into the equation. There was already a Greek presence in Macedonia since the 8th century BC.
From the study of the Indo-European languages point-of-view, the idea of a foreign language being introduced into a host region and supplanting the native language is not unusual. There are documented cases of this having various different reasons for this, including economic and social factors (not necessarily war), but, this opens a new can of worms, so I'll just point to the example of the southeast coast of Africa. Of the many languages spoken in the region, one, Swahili, became the dominant language, because of economic and social factors.
3) Even if the Macedonian kings did impose Greek on their subjects as a foreign language, it would have been impossible for the people to learn it so quickly, and not to preserve ,their own language side by side with it, which, as we know today, always happens in such cases, and impossible also for such a thing to escape the attention of Titus Livy, the Roman historian, who mentions that in the 3rd century B.C. the Macedonians spoke the same language as the (Greek) Aetolians and Acarnanians
Livy was quoting a Greek embassador in the year 217 BC (late enough for the Greek language to have become the dominant language). Remember, there was a Greek presence since at least 734 BC (date of the foundation of Methone). The Macedonians had 500 years to have adopted Greek. This is long enough, don't you think?
Sorry for the formatting confusion. I tried just about everything I know to correct this but sadly, I failed.
you say it was popular that macedonians were considered barbarian. are there some other examples where the same people is being considered as barbaric by its compatriots?
Sharrukin I start this topic about the origin of the ancient Macedonian history but if you want to post it in other thread I dont have any problem. The name of the thread is a copy-paste-edit idea from the the known book of Poulton.
We have to divide the seeking of the origin of Macedonians in two parts in my opinion.
The first one is when showed up the Macedonian name and the Greek suffix Mak=length in the linguistics and generally in the written history .And the second one those that is under the spectra of the archaeological findings.The latter can also divide in two more topics. The pre or pre-history and the post Argead apeerance
Unfortunately, prehistory gives us no evidence which can be considered as concerning the Macedonian people. We have to descend relatively low on the ladder of history, to the 5th century B.C., to hear the first mention of the name "Macedonian" from the father of history, Herodotus , who, indeed, identifies it with the Doric tribe. He saysfor "TheDoric tribe"..
For in the days of king Deucalion1 it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian.
The same historian mentions that the Spartans, the Corinthians, the Sicyonians, the Epidaurians and the Troezenians, all from the Peloponnese, took part in the naval battle of Salamis.
The following took part in the war: from the Peloponnese, the Lacedaemonians provided sixteen ships; the Corinthians the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen ships, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezenians five, the Hermioneans three. All of these except the Hermioneans are Dorian and Macedonian and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region. The Hermioneans are Dryopians, driven out of the country now called Doris by Herakles and the Malians.
Thus, according to Herodotus, the Macedonians were Dorians, and the Dorians were a Macedonian tribe. He adds that the Macedonians considered themselves to be Greeks and he too is sure of their Greek nationality. The other Greeks thought the same, as is evident from the decision which was taken by the judges at the Olympic Games to allow Alexander the First to compete there.There are the known quotes such as
Inform yoor King that a Greek,The king of the Macedonians,received you with frienship
Athenians....I would not speak, were I not very worried for all Hellas.For I myself am Hellene by race from the begginning and I should not like to see a free Hellas become a slave
From these passages, where the Macedonians are discussed for the first time, it seems completely clear that the Greeks of the 5th century B.C. considered the Macedonians to be a part of the Doric tribe of Greeks, which had formerly lived around Pindus, and which had spread from there into other regions, not only eastwards into modern Macedonia driving out other Greek or foreign tribes in the way which the same historian describes elsewherebut southwards as well, as far as the Peloponnese.
However, historians and linguists have not wished to content themselves with Herodotus testimony, however much it might be a reflection of his Greek contemporaries' opinion about Macedonian nationality and not an invention of his own. The Macedonian kings may have been Greeks, it was thought, but the people might not have been Greek speakers from the beginning; perhaps they had been Hellenized by their rulers later on. I think Sharrukin you are the one that agree with that option of the origin of the ancient Macedonians.
These doubts can be repudiated by the following remarks:
1) It is difficult to believe that, at that time, a Greek royal household was in a position to conquer and rule over an alien people which spoke a different language, while surrounded by a local military aristocracy-also speaking a different language-which never desired to remove the foreign ruler, It is not only nalve to accept such an idea, it would also compel us to accept a fact for which one could not easily supply an analogy from some other country.
2) Even if we do accept this rather improbable fact, what should have happened as a natural consequence would have been the linguistic assimilation of the Greek royal household by its subjects, and never the reverse. What always happens in the history of the nations is the linguistic absorption of the foreign rulers by the local people.Even when the rulers comprise an entire nation , it is sufficient for them to be less in number.
3) Even if the Macedonian kings did impose Greek on their subjects as a foreign language, it would have been impossible for the people to learn it so quickly, and not to preserve ,their own language side by side with it, which, as we know today, always happens in such cases, and impossible also for such a thing to escape the attention of Titus Livy, the Roman historian, who mentions that in the 3rd century B.C. the Macedonians spoke the same language as the (Greek) Aetolians and Acarnanians
These observations very much discredit any suspicion that the Greek kings of Macedonia could have made Greek speakers of a foreign people at such an early period, when there existed neither schools, nor printing, nor church. What would be able to dispose conclusively of this idea would be nothing other than a text written in the ancient Macedonian dialect-i.e. the dialect which the Macedonians spoke before they supposedly became Greek speakers, but unfortunately this does not exist.
All the ancient inscriptions from the depths of the Macedonian earth which have come to light under the archaeologists trowel belong to the era when the Macedonian kings had already made Attic the official dialect of their nation. To date, it has not been possible to find anywhere an inscription, even of one single phrase, written before the 5th century B.C.; that is to say, before the time when the Macedonians supposedly became speakers of Greek.
How are we to explain this?
It is entirely improbable that the Macedonians did not write in the 6th century B.C., since the Greek script was by then already known to peoples further to the north of them. it her, therefore, the old Macedonian inscriptions were all carved onto some perishable material and have disappeared without trace in the passage of time; or we must keep hoping that somewhere, they too await the archaeological pickaxe or the farmer's plough to drag them into the light of day.
herodotus says: The macedonians say they're greek, SO THAT HE COULD BE ABLE TO SAY THEY'RE GREEK, thus not expressing his macedonians-are-greek implicity on the matter, though.
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