Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Kalevipoeg
Chieftain
Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1458
|
Quote Reply
Topic: The Fall of Berlin, 1945 Posted: 21-Jun-2005 at 12:25 |
I just saw this WW2 documentary yesterday, spoke of Hitler, and mostly where his corpse was burried, somewhere in Magdeburg. So it also covered the basics of the history of the war like the massive Soviet offensive against fascist tyranny and opression. The documentary also stated that 2,5 million soldiers of the Red Army were storming towards Berlin. And then, to my astoundment, it mentioned 1,5 million Soviet casualties purely on the taking of the nazi capitol.
I have always imagined the defense of Berlin as a totally futile attempt by an army utterly demoralized and ripped of nazist illusions, but killing 1,5 million attackers can't be the act of an army i mentioned above, what was the case there? Am i just dumb on the matter of sieging and conquering cities during WW2, is the documentary faulty or was everything fine with such a casualty rate during WW2?
|
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
|
|
Paul
General
AE Immoderator
Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-Jun-2005 at 14:04 |
Not sure where you saw the documentary but it sounds like a History Channel mock-u-mentary. You're definately right to question it.
I was in Treptow Park a few years back and the Russians gave a figure on the monument, but I can't remember it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/low/dates/stories/april/21/n ewsid_3560000/3560175.stm
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_for_berlin.htm
Edited by Paul
|
|
|
Thegeneral
Chieftain
Joined: 05-Mar-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1117
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-Jun-2005 at 15:14 |
Actually the History Channel has some very nice stuff. I don't know what you "mon-u-mentary came from . But I have heard that that figure is correct, and it is quite possible. Imagine street-to-street, house-to-house fighting with tanks rolling down the streets. Pretty easy targets for any panzershrecks. And with the knowledge that this was their last stand; don't underestimate the German army!
|
|
sovietsniper
Janissary
Joined: 26-May-2005
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-Jun-2005 at 15:31 |
the red army made the same mistakes at berlin as the germans did at stalingrad. they sent in tanks thought aircraft could do all the work ect
|
victory to russia
|
|
Constantine XI
Suspended
Suspended
Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-Jun-2005 at 18:46 |
So what is the real figure?
|
|
Thegeneral
Chieftain
Joined: 05-Mar-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1117
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-Jun-2005 at 18:51 |
Well, according to this site, http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/berlin.htm, they did not lose 1 million but they still sustained heavy losses at 305,000.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-Jun-2005 at 19:08 |
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/battles.htm:
Berlin, World
War II (16 April-7 May 1945):
250 000
- Erickson, Barbarossa: The Axis and the Allies. Table 12.4 (USSR
KIA): 78,291
- 30 May 2004 Washinton Post review of Inside Hitler's Bunker
by Joachim Fest: Fest est. >300,000 Red Army soldiers died, contrasted by
reviewer with Antony Beevor's est. (Fall of Berlin 1945) of 78,000
Soviet dead.
- Martin Sorge, The Other Price of Hitler's War (1986): 100,000
civilians d. incl. 20,000 cardiac arrest and 6,000 suicide. Not incl. 52,000
refugees k. caught in air raids. (citing Cornelius Ryan)
- Wikipedia
- Soviet: 305,000 k.
- German: 325,000 soldiers + civilians k.
- Some guy on
Internet (Jason McDonald)
- Soviet: 305,000 d.
- German: 325,000, incl. civilians k.
- [I'm figuring 78T Soviets + 325T German deaths - 152T civilians]
|
|
Kalevipoeg
Chieftain
Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1458
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 13:41 |
Yes, 300 thousand seems more like it.
|
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
|
|
Moller
Knight
Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Denmark
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 63
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 15:21 |
Hmm
maybe different sources are talking about different definition the fall Berlin. Have seen a program on Discovery some months ago (can't remember the name of it) where they talked about 6 mil. Russians in attack towards Berlin, but this offensive was already launced in Jan. 45 from Mid-Poland with a frontline going south through Poland down into the Czech Republic - so a large frontline counting the entire northern part of the eastern front
Maybe the Russians lost 1.5 mil men from Jan 45 to the end of Berlin, and from these 1.5 mil they lost 300.000 in the final attack into the streets of Berlin?
|
|
Thegeneral
Chieftain
Joined: 05-Mar-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1117
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 15:45 |
Yeah, that could very well be it.
|
|
TheDiplomat
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1988
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 04:44 |
One should absolutely watch the movie Der Untergang in order to have a clue about what a downfall means.!
|
ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
|
|
Arnil
Immortal Guard
Joined: 05-Apr-2005
Location: Ecuador
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 21:42 |
The russians didnt lost most of their troops in berlin but at the gates of the city were a divission of SS troops were waiting for them
The day before they bombed the positions but the germans
were transladet to another position and the bombs didnt hit them.
so when the russians were moving to Berlin thinking the way was open
they lost like 150 000 troops just that day
|
|
aghart
Shogun
Joined: 05-Sep-2005
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 232
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 17:38 |
Soviet losses were huge in Berlin, I do know that the Soviets lost more men taking Berlin than the total combined military and civilian deaths of the UK in "the entire war"
Edited by aghart
|
Former Tank Commander (Chieftain)& remember, Change is inevitable!!! except from vending machines
|
|
Renegade
Samurai
Joined: 09-Apr-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 132
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Apr-2006 at 22:39 |
And plus the Americans, that only half of a million.
|
"I kill a few so that many may live."
- Sam Fisher
|
|
konstantinius
General
Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 20:34 |
Around 300,000 DEAD yes, the total casualty figure could very well be at or even over one million if we accept a reasonable 3:1 or 4:1 ratio of wounded to dead. Red Army's tactics were atrocious with complete disregard for the life of the soldier. Urban warfare is also more costly in lives by definition. I should mention that these figures cover not only the Battle for Berlin itself but also the period leading right up to it, from the moment the Russians crossed the Oder to the final days and the fall in May.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 01:18 |
These numbers are a bit inflated. I have read 100,000 KIA and 300,000 WIA in the Battle of berlin, which means all the battles fromthe Oder onwards.
|
|
babyblue
Chieftain
Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1174
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 01:22 |
Originally posted by sovietsniper
the red army made the same mistakes at berlin as the germans did at stalingrad. they sent in tanks thought aircraft could do all the work ect |
WRONG! Planes are the worst way to decimate the defenders of a city. Not only would you be wasting your time, you'd also be creating numerous obstacles for your own troops as they move in.
Some close air-support, some armour and heaps of infantry is the best way to capture a city.
|
|
violentjack
Earl
Joined: 10-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 269
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 06:37 |
Around 500 000 Russians(Soviets) died
|
Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite
|
|
Travis Congleton
Shogun
Joined: 18-Aug-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 200
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 07:23 |
Many sources, when they use the word 'casualty', it combines the soldiers killed and wounded.
1.5 million casualties? (dead and wounded) Probably on the high end. I would take the 300.000 killed and multiply that by 2.5. Remember, in the eyes of the Soviet Commanders, the siege of Berlin wasn't really a siege. It was a race. Who could get to the Reichstag the fastest.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 10:07 |
Ive got a book an it says 100,000 Russians died in Berlin.
|
|