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Topic: The Battle of Manzikert Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 15:03 |
Malazgirt Sava (Malazgirt Zaferi)
This is a page of Turkish History Books.But I see it needs a translation.It will be difficult but I ll try to translate it for u in near future. ok ?
http://www.dallog.com/savaslar/malazgirt.htm
Edited by Seko
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Seko
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Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 15:04 |
Sorry this post of yours will be deleted until a translation is made. It could be resubmitted then.
Edited by Seko
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Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 15:48 |
Ok.No problem.I understand.Thanks.So I ve to say that;
Before the Battle Uzs and Pechenek changed their sides to Turks.Cos they were Turk too.But during the battle Armenians had quit from Byzantines!Cos When Diojen had come to Sivas,he killed Armenian Princes with their people which live on near areas. Already there was a sect problem between Byzantines-Armenians.
Egypt-Fatimi state was being harmful and dangerous for Islam world.Alpaslan was going on to Egypt.But when he got news of closer Diogenes he went to Malazgirt(menzikert).
Alpaslan demanded to pray for himself and his army from Caliph el Kaim in Baghdat.Caliph send a Friday hutbe (sermon) to all mosques about victory for Alpaslan.
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Posted: 06-Apr-2006 at 10:34 |
Sultan Alp Arslan wore a white gown during the battle. he ordered his men that if he is killed in the war he should buried with that gown. He tired his horses tail to his belly according to an old Turkish tradition. (Muhammet the Prophet also wore white gown in every battle.)
After the battle Sultan Alp Arslan fought againts a terror order called Haschhaschis(who smoke Haschisch) organized by a Iraninar/Turk(?) called Hasan Sabbah. During the siege of the fortress Hana he was severly wounded by a Haschhaschi in 1072. He strugled with the dead nearly 40 days. When he died He was 42 years old. On his dying bed he told his friends the folowing lesson:
"A month ago I was commanding the whole World. Now I am lying on my dying bed. I was on a hill watching my soldiers passing. I became too proud. I thought myself that I am the powerfull man on this world. But a misirable man wounded me. Soon I will die. It is my testimony to my son and his sons and their sons, to all Turkish rulers that a group of singers should sing the following quotation every day just under the window of Sultan after the morning prayer.
"Magrur olma Padischahim, Senden buyuk Allah var!"
to English: "Don't be proud O Sultan! Allah is the only almighty."
This song has been sang until 1923 in every Turkish court. After the declaration of Turkish Republic in 1923 it is forgotton.
Allah is the only Allmighty.
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kroglu
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Posted: 11-Apr-2006 at 19:34 |
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violentjack
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 20:03 |
This was Byzantine effort that just went wrong.Started back in 1064
when Armenia was taken by Muslims.In order to help them few years later
1071 Romanus tried to crush a new growing Turkic force and
restore Armenia to Christianity once more.But at Malzikert(Manzikert)
archers that were never seen so capable and cavalry who crushed
opponents in far east,destroyed Byzantines,mainly Turks under new
leader from far east who moved eventually westward into Anatolia.Alp
Aslan or valiont lion as he was called.
Turks would later lead Crusading efforts from first Crusades of 1095
and Claremont to second 1143-1144 and then all the way to Nicopole
battle 1396 and Malta 1565
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Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite
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violentjack
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 20:04 |
But im off topic with this one
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Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 23:39 |
Having done a review of this battle, it is my opinion that the battle
itself, while important, was not decisive in allowing the Turks to
occupy Anatolia. Byzantine internal divisions and civil wars often
meant the Turks were able to pour into Anatolia as welcome help by
Byzantine pretenders. It was an act of military and political suicide
by the Byzantines on a grand scale.
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Jagatai Khan
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Posted: 21-May-2006 at 05:05 |
How about the numbers?Greek side and Turkish side always give different numbers of the both armies.
I saw many times it is believed Turks had more men than Byzantines in English sources written by Greeks.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 21-May-2006 at 10:15 |
At the actual battle itself, the Turks had more numbers on the day of
battle. Half the Byzantine army never saw combat, returning home for
unknown reasons before battle began. There were also numerous
defections from Turkish Uz horsemen on the night before the battle to
Alp Arslan's camp, about 2,000 deserted. On the day of battle Arslan's
army had a bit of a numerical advantage from what I have read. But that
wasn't the decisive cause of victory.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 22-May-2006 at 12:24 |
This is very interesting but if someone could answer a few points I'd be very pleased.
How many Troops did the Byzantine army initially begin with (prior to any de-fectors and groups that seperated away)
How many Troops did AlpArslan set off with?
Is it right to say that if the Byzantine's had been victorious today's Turkey would still be Byzantine/Christian?
Regards
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 29-May-2006 at 14:57 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
This is very interesting but if someone could answer a few points I'd be very pleased.
How many Troops did the Byzantine army initially begin with (prior to any de-fectors and groups that seperated away)
How many Troops did AlpArslan set off with?
Is it right to say that if the Byzantine's had been victorious today's Turkey would still be Byzantine/Christian?
Regards |
Wikipedia has 40,000 Byzantines and 70,000 Turks. I'm sure there are a variety of figures. As I recall, the battle could possibly have been a Byzantine victory had the rear-guard trapped the Seljuks. One of the Ducas boys, however, preferred to leave the Emperor to his fate.
If the Byzantines had been victorious, would Anatolia be Turkish today? Hm, a difficult question to answer. The Turkish advance would definitely have been set back, and perhaps they may not have recovered. As I recall, however, one of the Comnenoi (Manuel?) had the opportunity to do immeasurably more damage later than Diogenes could have at Manzikert. Basically, there are several points in Byzantine history where the Turks could probably have been pushed out of Anatolia, but each time the Byzantines failed to capitalize on them (weak emperors, etc.)
I think it is safe to say that if the Byzantines had maintained control of Anatolia it would have remained Christian.
-Akolouthos
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 29-May-2006 at 15:16 |
I fully agree with akolouthos
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 29-May-2006 at 15:25 |
Whew! I was waiting for confirmation. I was worried that after so many years my Byzantine secular history might be rusty.
-Akolouthos
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 29-May-2006 at 15:33 |
when you're right you're right
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 29-May-2006 at 15:39 |
Heh, I can only hope I'm right about the right thing. If I had been right to worry, I'd be a bit less pleasantly surprised. ;)
-Akolouthos
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Digenis
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Posted: 29-May-2006 at 15:52 |
Originally posted by Akolouthos
The Turkish advance would definitely have been set back, and perhaps they may not have recovered. As I recall, however, one of the Comnenoi (Manuel?) had the opportunity to do immeasurably more damage later than Diogenes could have at Manzikert. Basically, there are several points in Byzantine history where the Turks could probably have been pushed out of Anatolia, but each time the Byzantines failed to capitalize on them (weak emperors, etc.) |
The first 3 Comnenoi emperors (Alexius,John and Manuel),recovered a great part of Asia Minor 1081-1176. You can see it in the following map ( under byzantine rule in 1081-the dark green area) Alexius (1081-1118) recovered much of the west,mainly using the crusaders as vassals in 1096-1st crusade. John (1118-1143) lead many victorious campaigns and recovered the southern coast,pushing also on the central and northern areas. Manuel (1143-1181),after minor successes in the south,was defeated in 1176 in Myriokephalon,leading a campaign. During the last Comnenoi,the South was lost,But West and North remain under Byzantine control until 1259,without significant changes. The real collapse of Byzantine rule in Asia Minor,cam in 1260-1305,when the Lascarides -emperors of Nicea were replaced by the Paleologian Dynasty. The Paleologians,aristocrates themselves,with first the man who re-conquered Constantinople-Michael VIII (1262) ,literally abandoned Micra Asia. Tey favoured the feudal land-owners,so the small-land owners suffered much,and the main body of Byzantine army was dibanded. Asia Minor,was so an easy target for the vivid uprising Turkish Emirates. In conclusion,i believe that single incidents as battles,are only high-lights,in the continuous process of history. Sociological and political factors are the powers which really push history forward.
Edited by Digenis - 29-May-2006 at 15:55
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Jagatai Khan
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Posted: 29-May-2006 at 15:55 |
And a huge question mark about the battle.How did the Pecheneg, Khazar and Uze mercenaries in Byzantine Army established contact with Seljuks and how did the desertion happen?
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 29-May-2006 at 15:55 |
I think if The turks didn't conquerd Anatolia the influence of cristianity would be far bigger(in the east). But would the relations between the west and the Islam be better?(I doubt it)
Edited by xi_tujue - 29-May-2006 at 15:57
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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konstantinius
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Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 20:19 |
Warhero/koroglu, you go from stating that Romanus "was a butcher who killed civilians in many cities" to claiming as his sole crime the eradication of some rival Armenian princes in Sivas. Well, welcome to imperialism, what do you think the Sultans were doing? This hardly makes Romanus a "butcher". Furthermore, Anatolia up to this point was entirely Byzantine; what sense would make for the Emperor to burn the Empire's own villages? Romanus, despite his bitter end, comes across as an able administrator and military man, hardly the man for such foolish mistake.
Furthermore: Your sources cannot be Turkish nationalistic history sites with no english translation, which of course will tend to portray the Turkish version of events. If you'd like, I'd suggest a good ol' tradition of us here in the West, that of VOTING as FREE MEN by the registered members of this FORUM. If you need instructions on how to vote you can look it up at your favorite source for dependable information, Wikipedia.
Edited by konstantinius - 23-Aug-2006 at 20:56
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