Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Topic: This is the BBC today....apologized.... Posted: 08-May-2008 at 14:19 |
Indeed. It was not just about this thead. Thanks Anton.
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 20:41 |
Originally posted by es_bih
I did not see that come out of Anton though.
|
I am pretty sure Flipper wrote in general.
|
.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 17:33 |
City states that were open to the larger Roman world post conquest too mind you.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 17:31 |
Originally posted by Flipper
Originally posted by es_bih
You were provided with history; history that you did not like to hear. That isn't the same as there beeing ignorance, less history, etc... I think you are rather insultning the intelligence of a lot of members here just because you can't handle to hear an alternate explanation.
|
Don't worry, I have been handling the historical issues pretty well backing up what i say. I was not protesting about that but rather by the tones, arrogance, onesided critisism and other negative behaviours.
|
I did not see that come out of Anton though.
|
|
Al Jassas
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 16:31 |
Apples and oranges I would say.
Al-Jassas
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 16:30 |
Originally posted by es_bih
You were provided with history; history that you did not like to hear. That isn't the same as there beeing ignorance, less history, etc... I think you are rather insultning the intelligence of a lot of members here just because you can't handle to hear an alternate explanation.
|
Don't worry, I have been handling the historical issues pretty well backing up what i say. I was not protesting about that but rather by the tones, arrogance, onesided critisism and other negative behaviours.
Edited by Flipper - 06-May-2008 at 16:38
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 16:23 |
Originally posted by es_bih
Oh yes sir, the mighty Greeks are 100% pure Achilleans. Uhmm... those Anatolians that were transoported were not "Greeks." And if they are; then its the language that interconects not genetics anymore. If that is true; then Anton's argument is still valid. Not all of Anatolia nor the majority were Greeks. A lot were Hellenized.
|
That's exactly the tone that downgrades the discussions es bihn. The first sentence... I think people in here have continiously repeated their dissbelief to pure races. However, since you mention those Anatolians, tell me what were the people that came to be the proto-Greeks as many call them? Were they Dinaric maybe? No... At a big extent Anatolian as well based on R. J. King, S. S. Özcan, T. Carter, E. Kalfoğlu, S. Atasoy, C.
Triantaphyllidis, A. Kouvatsi, A. A. Lin, C-E. T. Chow, L. A.
Zhivotovsky, M. Michalodimitrakis. http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.xAlso, based on Palmers theory from the 60s... Also remember that Aeolia and Ionia were in anatolia. However, I can agree that many people of Anatolia who were considered Greeks in medieval and later years were of Phrygian, Lycian, Lydian etc background.
Edited by Flipper - 06-May-2008 at 16:31
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 15:25 |
Originally posted by Flipper
I think i won't participate again in the minefield. Not sure yet. I see a lot of negativity, less history, ignorance, trolling, selectiveness, bias and people who won't miss a chance bashing on various fields.
If I wanted I could open up Pandoras box but this place is not supposed to be about that.
|
You were provided with history; history that you did not like to hear. That isn't the same as there beeing ignorance, less history, etc... I think you are rather insultning the intelligence of a lot of members here just because you can't handle to hear an alternate explanation.
Originally posted by Anton
(this is particularly stupid to deny in Balkans where everything was boiled together for millenias)
|
True analogy of the Balkans.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 15:21 |
Originally posted by akritas
Originally posted by Anton
Originally posted by akritas
Attempts to force the Greek nation into either a "black" or a "white" or a “Slavic” category have no biological justification. Greeks are Greeks and not part Greeks. |
Ugly logic. Greeks were heavily intermixed with slavs since 6th Justinian times. To deny this is nationalistic as you love to offend others in. |
are you Slav or Tatar if you want to play your nationalist game ?
Originally posted by Anton
Originally posted by akritas
do you need more ?
|
"The whole country was slavicized" (Constantione Porphirogenitus)
"All citizens of Salnika speak pure slavonic" (Russian Chronicle)
Do you want more? |
So what ?
the game of the cutting quotes is a popular game of those that have empties argumenrts or avoid the reality.
Originally posted by xristar
Originally posted by Anton
Originally posted by akritas
do you need more ?
|
"The whole country was slavicized" (Constantione Porphirogenitus)
"All citizens of Salnika speak pure slavonic" (Russian Chronicle)
Do you want more? |
1st) the exact expression is 'εσλαβώθη' which can be translated as both 'slavicized' and 'enlsaved'.... And it reffers only to Peloponnesos, where a massacre of slavs followed, and a replacement by anatolian greeks. 2)Salonika was never taken by slavs, as also most walled cities. the area around Salonika had indeed many slavs (until the 20th century), as also turcs and persians (the name 'Vardar' is persian )
|
This is to hard for Anton.
|
Oh yes sir, the mighty Greeks are 100% pure Achilleans. Uhmm... those Anatolians that were transoported were not "Greeks." And if they are; then its the language that interconects not genetics anymore. If that is true; then Anton's argument is still valid. Not all of Anatolia nor the majority were Greeks. A lot were Hellenized.
|
|
Seko
Emperor
Spammer
Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 14:41 |
Of course these topics can take the turn you both have mentioned. However, it is also up to us, as members, to steer clear from unconvincing evidence and personal politics. This is a continuation of other subforums with the only difference being that we can discuss those previously troublesome areas. I did have my hesitations before signing onto this subforum. Reason being some things are best left alone. Our experience has taught us that allowing heated topics has its pitfalls. Within that context though, let's give this Minefield a chance for those who do wish to shine more light on the covered subjects. Maybe we can do this with a level of maturity only expereinced members can provide.
Edited by Seko - 06-May-2008 at 14:44
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 14:34 |
You're right Seko. It is how things are used that we should critisize, not the idea. It is like critisizing the internet when people missuse it.
For my part, I'm here for history. If I need to debate, dissagree, argue etc i do it for something i like, which is history. On the other side, i felt forced because of sentimental reasons to take possition in political issues. Politics is something i detaste and that can vary depending on the geographic location or culture one resides. I will simply take as much distance i can and not relate the minefield as an idea with negativity within this forum.
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 14:33 |
Seko the Minefield (and I will following also Flipper decision) has lost its aim or goals that you want to provided. Here we have the known "historical research" that anyone can claim anything about the past. The first step is to downplay contradictory evidence; then to deduce from the limited facts one has assembled only those conclusions that support one's central thesis, or (if necessary) to invent evidence that suits one's own particular purposes. In order to establish similarity, one needs to begin from the assumption of a direct connection, and then make the evidence fit the facts, by omitting details and by overlooking significant differences. The only problem is that the result of such efforts is not history or a civilized debate, but rather a kind of hybrid between myth and history, a myth about history that drive in insults.
Edited by akritas - 06-May-2008 at 14:34
|
|
|
Seko
Emperor
Spammer
Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 14:07 |
Originally posted by Flipper
Anyway, the point is that the minefield sucks. As I said i could open Pandoras box, but how healthy would that be? I don't like poisoning peoples relations in here but believe me many would love to see such a moment. Like in real life...
|
After careful deliberation the Minefield was opened in order to discuss all previously blacklisted topics. I know this opens an avenue that enables our baser instincts but we are more focused on allowing critical evaluation of our most difficult topics. I certainly understand your hesitation and respect your decision to skillfully abstain. I don't see why members can't discuss the issues without too much sentimentality, however. Not only do we face our critics but we also face our own set boundaries.
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 14:00 |
You should! Nah I'm kidding. However, i don't see any possitiveness in it. I have to say i've been offended before but didn't give more value to it. I will experiment with indentifying myself only as Macedonian in the future without including "greek" anywhere, just like Cypriots do and other Greeks internally. I believe the propability of hearing funny comments is high. On the use of the word "nationalist" you could make other remarks conserning generalization of several things as well. As for selective quoting, you've probably not been reading much of what Akritas has written in the past. Be sure that in certain things he has not excluded anyone.
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 13:43 |
Originally posted by Flipper
Anyway, the point is that the minefield sucks. As I said i could open Pandoras box, but how healthy would that be? I don't like poisoning peoples relations in here but believe me many would love to see such a moment. Like in real life...
|
I do not agree with you. I would say so far nobody is offended. If he is than I would advise him not to use terms like "nationalist" that frequently, this stick can hit your bottom by its other side
|
.
|
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 13:39 |
Originally posted by Flipper
You mean selective quoting. If so, you must specify such.
|
I mean selective quoting of sources and scholars.
|
.
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 13:18 |
Originally posted by Anton
Proper methods should exclude strategy of cherry picking of data that fits your ideas.
|
You mean selective quoting. If so, you must specify such. Besides, Akritas deals often with data that can be considered unfitting.
Deffending of rights of Macedonians for their name is nationalism.
|
And defending the rights of the Macedonians to dissagree with another countrys name is stupid, silly and other epithets as you have seen. The Macedonians or Makedones if you prefer have to take daily bullsh*t (sorry) without doing anything.
Even the idea of local origin of the culture of Balkan nations is considered as "nationalistic amalgamation theory". Is this what you consider proper methods, mate? Not at all, it is an attempt to descredit your opponent in the eyes of those who are not willing to take a closer look on the question. Very convinient way of doing things. And when it does not work those people are offended as you can see looking at the initial post in the thread.
|
Unfortunately Anton "those who are not willing to take a closer look on the question" sometimes are more interrested in bashing and discrediting. If you detect such methods and baseless ones, then I believe you could make a whole thread yourself conserning Bulgaria - FYROM issues without even touching Greece. And I mean this, in favour of Bulgarian views. Statistically, based on a google search you know where from the hits matching your criterias would come from... Anyway, the point is that the minefield sucks. As I said i could open Pandoras box, but how healthy would that be? I don't like poisoning peoples relations in here but believe me many would love to see such a moment. Like in real life...
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 12:51 |
Originally posted by Flipper
You, Akritas and anyone else has the right to defend his positions without being called a nationalist, as long as proper method are used. That would be the use of neutral/verifyed sources and correct quoting.
|
Proper methods should exclude strategy of cherry picking of data that fits your ideas.
To use altered material, trolling, baseless arguments in order to hurt or humiliate a group can be considered nationalism.
|
For some reason it doesn't work with some fellas. Any mention of slavs in Greece is considered as nationalism. Deffending of rights of Macedonians for their name is nationalism. Even the idea of local origin of the culture of Balkan nations is considered as "nationalistic amalgamation theory". Is this what you consider proper methods, mate? Not at all, it is an attempt to descredit your opponent in the eyes of those who are not willing to take a closer look on the question. Very convinient way of doing things. And when it does not work those people are offended as you can see looking at the initial post in the thread.
It was not an attack to you Anton, but i found that quote of yours usefull for making a point.
|
You wrote right things, why should it be considered as an attack?
|
.
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 12:15 |
Originally posted by Anton
Why is it so hard for you to understand that nationalists are those people who write and promote in nationalistis sites like you do. |
He mainly promotes material he self writes based on sources, with book scans or links. Furthermore, some of the sites have many participants that are countrymen of yours and provide documents in Bulgarian. You, Akritas and anyone else has the right to defend his positions without being called a nationalist, as long as proper method are used. That would be the use of neutral/verifyed sources and correct quoting. To use altered material, trolling, baseless arguments in order to hurt or humiliate a group can be considered nationalism. I thought it would be healthy to clear this out. It was not an attack to you Anton, but i found that quote of yours usefull for making a point.
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-May-2008 at 11:56 |
I think i won't participate again in the minefield. Not sure yet. I see a lot of negativity, less history, ignorance, trolling, selectiveness, bias and people who won't miss a chance bashing on various fields.
If I wanted I could open up Pandoras box but this place is not supposed to be about that.
Edited by Flipper - 06-May-2008 at 11:58
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|