The reason for antisemtism...

Originally posted by omshanti Originally posted by Maharbbal So to sum up: there is no consensus on why the Jews have been for centuries except the fact that they were the "other" and that they were weak. In my opinion It should be ''one of the others'' in stead of ''the other''. As I have been saying Jews are only one among many minorities who have been discriminated. Minorities do tend to face discrimination in any part of the world (due to different reasons in each region) and Jews simply happened to be among the minorities in many parts of Europe and the middle east.

You didn't get it, in social sciences there are the normal and the other. There For instance for the Spanish conquistadore the other were the Indians as well as the Moors.

Originally posted by omshanti Originally posted by Maharbbal The "jewish mind" is plain non-sens: I don't think so, by ''the jewish mind'' I am referring to the Jewish mind-set or to the collective conciousness of the Jews or the way the Jews generally perceive the world. I did explain what I mean by the collective conciousness. let me quote what I wrote. Originally posted by omshanti As soon as you start to say the Jews,.the Moslems or the christians you are already ignoring the individual in favour of the whole, Of course there are exceptions but that is not what is being discussed . Within every culture there are certain norms that either conciously or unconciously influence it's members which could be described as a collective conciousness whether that be a British mind set, a Jewish mind set or Japanese mind set. Whether we like it or not it shapes part of who we are and how we perceive the world.

But the problem here is where do a common mind set comes from?
�Shared experience
�Shared genes
�Shared environment
But there is no such a link between the Jews. Or it is very very weak� Where is the common point between a Polish Jew in the 19th Century Yiddishland, a Jewish French citizen integrated in the Parisian society and a Marrocan Jew? They do not speak the same languages, they don't look the same, etc the only thing unifying them as I said was the feeling of belonging to one community. And even this is a generalization (see the very unwelcoming way the French Jews received the Eastern European Jewish emigrate).

Originally posted by omshanti Originally posted by Maharbbal what are the caracteristics? I thought I have been explaining this all along, The need/desire to be special and unique in victimhood. The perception that they are the most and especially victimized nation.

If you care to pay attention to the real world, there were many and important examples of Jewish communities not relying on victimhood see the Jews in Western Europe in the period 1770-1870.

Originally posted by omshanti Originally posted by Maharbbal where does it come from? You tell me Maharbbal, One of your own posts might be an answer to this. let me quote it. Originally posted by Maharbbal The shoa is not the only catastrophy upon which the Jewish identity is constructed, it is merely the lateset, the most important in number and the best documented. Remember Babylon, Egypt or the fall of the Temples. The Jewish identity is constructed on these catastrophies maybe more so than on characters such as David and Salomon. The key prophets are linked to these catastrophies (Jeremia, Moise�).Paradoxically, these catastrophies are proof (for the religious Jews) of the fact that they are the chosen ones, Also in this post you yourself use the word ''the Jewish identity'' which is related to and not that far from ''the Jewish mind''.

I fear you didn't get me (or maybe I wasn't clear enough). I meant MODERN Jewish identity. Beside, I do see an important margin between identity (which is a construct) and a mind-set (which is more or less given).

Originally posted by omshanti Originally posted by Maharbbal The difference between the concepts of Jew and of Jewish man is that one is cultural or political or social and the other is psycho-genetical. Maharbbal, can you please clarify this sentence for me? Which one is which? and what are you trying to say regarding the Jewish mind? It is quite obvious that by the Jewish mind I am referring to a cultural, political, social and psychological stance of the Jewish nation rather than something genetic.

I was drunk, what I said was totally stupid.

Originally posted by omshanti Originally posted by Maharbbal That being said I may be wrong, just show me a Jewish mind... Well personally I think that Yisahshikhahr's or your posts are good examples. Or You can just go to Israel and see what is politically correct or what is the norm , they are good examples too.

Mmmm I'd like you to say it. Israel is far too dangerous right now and I'm no fan of these people. Concerning myself if I remember well there is a phrase in some holy Jewish book: "If I know myself can I still be myself? But I don't know myself who would?".

Originally posted by omshanti Originally posted by Maharbbal The reason why I'm saying we'd better not talk about these subject is because I know that the members are quite opinionated and have little chance to reach a consensus. Isn't that quite normal? In which topics here in the AE forum people are not opinionated? Or In how many topics people actually do reach a consensus?

Well I haven't invented the blacklisted topics, some subjects are just an excuse for endless debates and can lead to numerous bannings (remember Maju).

Originally posted by Maharbbal People are going to through arguments at each other faces, I can foresee bad faith and empty rhetoric.

Some
people might and some might not . Just because one person loses control it does not mean that others will do as well, does it?   

Originally posted by Maharbbal Finally, this is not the topic of the thread and there is no reasons it should be hijacked. If any one of you intend to discuss this, please do, but somewhere else.

I don't think it
is highjacking the thread , The Israeli-Palestinian situation is very much connected to and is the cause of the ''anti-semitism'' in the middle east, As for Iran , It was unfairely labelled and mentioned as an
example of ''anti-semitism'' so I was just saying that this is not the case.   

Originally posted by Maharbbal Obviously the Jewish question in Europe or America or anywhere else is less sensible.

So this is the real reason? We should not mention them (even though they are part of the topic) because you think that they are sensitive subjects.

Originally posted by Maharbbal But if any body decides to turn the thread into something like: against the Jewish lobbies in the US or why Jews should leave the EU, I'd be opposed to it as well.

I was only pointing out that the Jews have victimized Palestinians and was only explaining the fact about Iran when it was being labelled. It is difficult for me to understand why and how you equate them with ''something like against the Jewish lobbies in the US'' or ''why Jews should leave EU'' .

Originally posted by Maharbbal This is the old Weberian argument and I see several objections to it:� When does a "culture" starts, ends, changes?

You gave an answer to this yourself Maharbbal let me quote it from your post.

Originally posted by Maharbbal Hmm. Right on the other hand I know what's a Jew, it may be difficult to recognize and the definitions may vary, but over all I know what it is. I also know that they have organizations, common costums, ... you know a group. There are tremendous differences among them but ultimately, they kind of see each other as a group (see the rescue of the Falacha).

You seem to have no difficulty in telling what is a Jew or in knowing a group, so just use the same logic and apply it to culture.

Originally posted by Maharbbal � There is a major problem here is that even if we admit that groups' cultures matter the question becomes which group matters most? Gender, religion, nationality, urban v rural, age, firm, region, class, cast, job, family.......

Well Maharbbal since we
are discussing the Jews in this topic, you tell me. Which one of them make Jews jews?

Originally posted by Maharbbal � Similarly, how are you sure that speaking of a Jewish mind makes more sense than speaking of a Ashkenazee mind, Sefaradee mind, etc...

Well, aren't we disscussing the relation and discriminations between Jews and non-Jews in this Topic? We are not disscussing the relation/discrimination within Jews or within Israel, are
we? So ofcourse in this particular topic all groups of jews will be seen as one in general and the Jewish part comes first.

Originally posted by Maharbbal Am I biased? Most certainly yes, not only on this matter, on every matters. Mods are humans. But it is also the reason why no mod would be unbiased. Take Kom for instance, he would have closed the topic ages ago. Hellios made his opinion clear a few posts ago. Zagros too in the begining of the thread. I accept your criticism and I'll pay more attention in the future. But don't ever dream to see an unbiased mod. If you want to ask another mod to supervise the thread be my guest, do so.

I am very much aware that Moderators are humans, however moderators are SUPPOSED to be objective and unbiased. Isn't that the whole point of being a moderator? To be objective and unbiased as much as possible?

Originally posted by Maharbbal There is no common point between the so-called exil to Babylone and the Shoa. But still there are little example of a people discriminated against for so long.   I truelly don't see where is the problem here! The discriminations against the Jews had different causes, intensities, actors involved, and methods (so far every body agrees?). It remains that from Marrocco to Iran and from England to Sicily, Jews have been discriminated against (not continiously but pretty often) for the last 3,000 years and that this simple fact is quite unique.

From Morrocco to Iran , From England to Sicily for the past 3000 years discriminated pretty often? Isn't that an over exaggeration?
First of all untill the 2nd century when the diaspora happened the Jews were in the Fertile cresent and not widely spread at all.
I am also sure that at one or some points in history replacements took place, meaning that the original jews from Canaan/Fertile cresent died out and were replaced by people (such as the Greeks, Anatolians, Romans ..etc) who converted in to Judaism and became Jews. So counting the ancient Jews (Hebrews/Israelites) in Canaan/Fertile cresent as the exact same people as the modern jews might not work.
In Iran Jews were never singled out. They only faced (religious) oppression twice (once in Sasanid era ,once in early islamic era) as a part of many other religious groups such as the Zoroastrians, Budhists, Christians, Hindus...etc. As for the current islamic republic/government of Iran (which I do not support at all), they are simply against the situation of Palestine, Zionism, the state of Israel and American imperialism.

As I wrote before the number of years does not make it unique . The Assyrians were persecuted regularly since 2500 years ago. The Gypsies have been discriminated all over Europe for almost a millennium now. The Zoroastrians have been discriminated in Iran since the arrival of Islam. How about the Untouchables or Dalits in India? Eventhough they are not an ethnic group, as the lowest people of the caste system they have been discriminated for almost 5000 years. Also we should not forget all those countless peoples who were almost or completely driven to extinction, Such as the native American tribes in North America or the Circassians in Russia...etc.
So really I don't think Jews are unique victims at all.

Originally posted by Maharbbal Once more I may be wrong, but please don't tell me I'm stupid and explain me my mistake.

Maharbbal where did I tell you that you are stupid? I don't recall at all telling you that you are stupid. If I did, please point it out by quoting so I can see where it is. I simply quoted your post and many others to reply to Yisahshikhahr's request which asked me for some proof to show how the Jews think that they are unique and special in/by victimhood. I thought that was obvious from the context.
[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Maharbbal So to sum up: there is no consensus on why the Jews have been for centuries except the fact that they were the "other" and that they were weak. Woooo. Five pages to reach that!

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr [The Palestinians' bad situation stems from their corrupt leadership's constant refusal to accept Jewish independence in the Middle East (such as the partition plan in 1937 and 1948) -- itself a form of anti-Semitism (hostility towards infidels, Jews, in "Muslim land.") Your second sentence is absurd -- discussing "anti-Semitism" does not deprive other groups of their attention. You are essentially, and unfairly, blaming the supposed forgetting of non-Jewish victims on Jews.

And ,for example, in 100 years when Palestianians will gain independence, they will not be better than the Jews.

Originally posted by omshanti Alright Maharbbal, It is very interesting that you complain that too much generalisation is going on when you don't see that the concept of ''anti-semitism'' (which you keep using without hesitation) is the biggest generalisation here. Or you complain when somebody writes ''the Jewish mind'' but do not say anything when another memeber writes ''we Jews'' ....etc.

Hmm. Right on the other hand I know what's a Jew, it may be difficult to recognize and the definitions may vary, but over all I know what it is. I also know that they have organizations, common costums, ... you know a group. There are tremendous differences among them but ultimately, they kind of see each other as a group (see the rescue of the Falacha). The "jewish mind" is plain non-sens: what are the caracteristics? where does it come from?
The difference between the concepts of Jew and of Jewish man is that one is cultural or political or social and the other is psycho-genetical. That being said I may be wrong, just show me a Jewish mind...

Originally posted by omshanti If Israel, Palestine or Iran should not be mentioned here then every single nation that has some thing to do with Jews or ''anti-semitism'' should not be mentioned here either. The whole Europe, West Asia or the Americas will be included in that category. [QUOTE] The reason why I'm saying we'd better not talk about these subject is because I know that the members are quite opinionated and have little chance to reach a consensus. People are going to through arguments at each other faces, I can foresee bad faith and empty rhetoric. Finally, this is not the topic of the thread and there is no reasons it should be hijacked. If any one of you intend to discuss this, please do, but somewhere else. Obviously the Jewish question in Europe or America or anywhere else is less sensible. But if any body decides to turn the thread into something like: against the Jewish lobbies in the US or why Jews should leave the EU, I'd be opposed to it as well.   Originally posted by omshanti Personally I think the difficulty here is that a moderator has double-standards and threatens people who do not obey his/her standards. In my opinion another (unbiased) moderator should be responsible for moderating this particular thread because whether you know it or not you are being biased Maharbbal (pointing few things out to Yisahshikhahr does not make any difference). Do not take me wrong, I have nothing against you personally. Am I biased? Most certainly yes,  not only on this matter, on every matters. Mods are humans. But it is also the reason why no mod would be unbiased. Take Kom for instance, he would have closed the topic ages ago. Hellios made his opinion clear a few posts ago. Zagros too in the begining of the thread. I accept your criticism and I'll pay more attention in the future. But don't ever dream to see an unbiased mod. If you want to ask another mod to supervise the thread be my guest, do so. Originally posted by omshanti Within every culture there are certain norms that either conciously or unconciously influence it's members which could be described as a collective conciousness whether that be a British mind set, a Jewish mind set or Japanese mind set. Whether we like it or not it shapes part of who we are and how we perceive the world. This is the old Weberian argument and I see several objections to it: � When does a "culture" starts, ends, changes? � There is a major problem here is that even if we admit that groups' cultures matter the question becomes which group matters most? Gender, religion, nationality, urban v rural, age, firm, region, class, cast, job, family....... � Similarly, how are you sure that speaking of a Jewish mind makes more sense than speaking of a Ashkenazee mind, Sefaradee mind, etc... Economist have developed the idea of the importance of confucianism in the development of South East and East Asian economies, but they finally dropped the concept as it turned out completely impossible to develop a concept of Confusianism precise enough to be usable and large enough to include Japan and China and Vietnam and whatever else. [QUOTE=omshanti]  A quote from Maharbbal [QUOTE=Maharbbal]There is no common point between the so-called exil to Babylone and the Shoa. But still there are little example of a people discriminated against for so long.

 

I truelly don't see where is the problem here! The discriminations against the Jews had different causes, intensities, actors involved, and methods (so far every body agrees?). It remains that from Marrocco to Iran and from England to Sicily, Jews have been discriminated against (not continiously but pretty often) for the last 3,000 years and that this simple fact is quite unique.  Once more I may be wrong, but  please don't tell me I'm stupid and  explain me my mistake.
Just to make one more thing clear, I'm not saying that the Jews have been discriminated continiously everywhere. I know for instance that in the hellenistic world they absolutly flourished from Alexandia to Corynthe, I know as well that it was Jewish mercenaries who where the last defendors of Fustat or that the Jewish community in Al-Andalous under the reign of the Ummeyads has been very well treated and fournished for instance the most trusted physicians to Abd al-Rahman III.

Originally posted by Kerimoglu In Azerbaijan, in religious Vahabi places u would see "Say Not to Jews and do not purchase their stuff" signed posters

Alright Maharbbal, It is very interesting that you complain that too much generalisation is going on when you don't see that the concept of ''anti-semitism'' (which you keep using without hesitation) is the biggest generalisation here. Or you complain when somebody writes ''the Jewish mind'' but do not say anything when another memeber writes ''we Jews'' ....etc.
If Israel, Palestine or Iran should not be mentioned here then every single nation that has some thing to do with Jews or ''anti-semitism'' should not be mentioned here either. The whole Europe, West Asia or the Americas will be included in that category.
Personally I think the difficulty here is that a moderator has double-standards and threatens people who do not obey his/her standards.
In my opinion another (unbiased) moderator should be responsible for moderating this particular thread because whether you know it or not you are being biased Maharbbal (pointing few things out to Yisahshikhahr does not make any difference). Do not take me wrong, I have nothing against you personally.

The whole topic of this thread is about a group or groups of people, so that requires generalization doesn't it? As soon as you start to say the Jews,.the Moslems or the christians you are already ignoring the individual in favour of the whole, Of course there are exceptions but that is not what is being discussed . Within every culture there are certain norms that either conciously or unconciously influence it's members which could be described as a collective conciousness whether that be a British mind set, a Jewish mind set or Japanese mind set. Whether we like it or not it shapes part of who we are and how we perceive the world.

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr Originally posted by omshanti What proof do I need to show when I am only pointing out the fact that the Jews are not the only victims or especially persecuted/discriminated people? Nobody disputes this obvious fact-- what's offensive is your assumption that we Jews think this way. The "proof" that I requested was concrete evidence that shows Jews indeed think or believe that they have a monopoly on suffering, as you maintain.

Ok, Perhaps you should read back your own posts (or some of other mambers' posts), They are very good proofs. Let me quote some for you.

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr As a Jew, I don't believe I am a part of the only people who have suffered, but I do think Jews have encountered a special amount of persecution within the Christian and Muslim worlds that is caused simply by the religious portrayals of Jews in the scriptures, such as "Christ-Killers", that is not attributed to other persecuted peoples like Assyrians, Tibetans, Gypsys, or Calvinists.

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr On the other hand, there is a long history of documented cases of discriminatory action against the Jews (such as the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Cossack raids against the Russians, the numerous explusions, the scapegoating, etc) that would lend credence to the idea that Jews have been especially picked on by their host countries.

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr And anti-Semitism is not just a "term" or a vague "concept" created in the minds of Jews to suck the sympathy out of people. Rather, it was a real phenomenom that manifested in just about every country where Jews have been living over the course of the last 2,000 years -- and it is essentially hating Jews for special reasons -- like being deniers of Christ, or deniers of Muhammad. What other people are accused of killing God, but the Jews?

A quote from Maharbbal

Originally posted by Maharbbal There is no common point between the so-called exil to Babylone and the Shoa. But still there are little example of a people discriminated against for so long.

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr the point is that, historically, when we are referring to persecution of minorities within Muslim and Christian societies, the Jewish People will most likely come out as suffering the "most" (at least in terms of quantity.)

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr Yes, other peoples were singled out in the Holocaust, but not to the same degree as the Jews. Why is this important? Because it needs to be recognized that the Holocaust was just the cap on the bottle of 2,000 years of persecution directed at Jews -- and this is unique, because Jews are also the only people who wrote the Bible and spread it to the world,

Is this not enough? Also since you refer to the Jews as ''we Jews'', so I am entitled to take your comments as representative of the whole Jewish nation.

Originally posted by Maharbbal Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr Originally posted by Omshanti I am only pointing out that the ignorant concept of ''anti semitism'' can be blinding and very dangerous. Why is anti-Semitism an "ignorant" concept, if we define it simply as hostility towards Jews? Yes by the way why?

To Maharbbal and Yisahshikhahr, did you not read the two examples I mentioned to point out why ''anti-semitism'' is ignorant?
Let me quote it myself

Originally posted by omshanti For example lets think about the Spanish inquisition which seems to have been labelled as an ''anti-semitic'' event in this thread. The inquisition was directed at any body who was not catholic or any body who was considered ''heretic''. The victims included Moslems, Protestants and Orthodox Greeks. Jews only happened to be one among so many victimized peoples and were not victimized because they were Jews, but still this whole event of Spanish inquisition seems to be perceived as an ''anti-semitic'' event by the Jewish mind. Or lets think about Iran since it has been mentioned a few times in this thread and labelled as ''anti-semitic''. First of all how can iran be against Semitic peoples when so many Iranians are Semitic themselves. If by ''anti-semitic'' you mean anti-Jew, let me inform you that Iran is not against the Jewish people at all. Iran is simply against the state of israel due to israel's unfair establishment. However somehow the whole world has been convinced that Iran is ''anti-semitic'' and so come all those propaganda and mistranslations to prove Iran's ''anti-semiticness''. In my opinion these two examples can be applied to most of the ''anti-semitism'' throughout history.

   

Not to mention what es_bih points out here.

Originally posted by es_bih It's not anti-semetism, its anti-Judaism if anything. Semites are a much broader group than just people of Judaic origin or faith.

Edited by omshanti - 19-Mar-2007 at 00:13

Originally posted by omshanti I am simply pointing out that ''anti-semitism'' is an ignorant term/concept created by the Jewish mentality/mind that needs to be special or unique in victimhood.

'Anti-Semitism', defined as hositility towards Jews, was not "created" by "the" Jewish mentality -- the term was popularized by a 19th-century German named Wilhelm Mahr, who made hatred-of-Jews into a fashionable, pseudo-scientific movement of the times. But this hostility had existed for hundreds of years in Germany but called by a different name -- judenhass.

I am only pointing out that the Jews are not special in victimhood, that they are not the only, the most or uniquely and especially persecuted/discriminated people as meny people seem to think.

Who seems to think that? Just because I said Jews are especially picked on, or that they have been discriminated against above average, does not mean that other peoples also don't experience abnormal amounts of discrimination and suffering. So who is this "many people" you are referring to?

I am only pointing out that the ignorant concept of ''anti semitism'' can be blinding and very dangerous.

Why is anti-Semitism an "ignorant" concept, if we define it simply as hostility towards Jews?

I have figured out that pointing out those things to Jewish people is like treading on eggshells

Again, you are over-generalizing  -- why don't you use some qualifications like "some", or even "most" if that's how you feel. Not all Jewish people are paranoid, despite the stereotype.

since every thing I write is taken with paranoiac tendency (which by itself prooves what I have been saying), and that generally they are considered politically incorrect.

I'm arguing with you not because you're un-PC, but because I don't believe your claims are true.

However I feel that as long as the unfair situation of the Palestinians continue, and for the sake of all those non-jewish victims whose victimhood has been ignored/forgotten under the concept of ''anti-semitism'' , I have to point those things out.

The Palestinians' bad situation stems from their corrupt leadership's constant refusal to accept Jewish independence in the Middle East (such as the partition plan in 1937 and 1948) -- itself a form of anti-Semitism (hostility towards infidels, Jews, in "Muslim land.") Your second sentence is absurd -- discussing "anti-Semitism" does not deprive other groups of their attention. You are essentially, and unfairly, blaming the supposed forgetting of non-Jewish victims on Jews.

Regarding the israeli-Palestinian situation, since it is a direct consequence of the ignorant concept ''anti-semitism'' (and Zionism)

The Israeli-Palestinian situation is only a local-level of the greater Israeli-Islamic conflict where the 22 states of 300,000 Arabs (in addition to Iran and other hostile Muslim states) has continously sought the annilihation of the Jewish state -- consisting today of 6 million Jews living in a country that's so small it could fit into Lake Michigan.

and since it is the cause of the ''anti-semitism'' (as perceived by the Jews and the west) in the middle east,   I see absolutely no reason why it should not be discussed here

Anti-Semitism (hostility towards Jews) existed in the Middle East long before the Zionist movement. Jews (and Christians) were considered dhimmi ("tolerated" peoples) ever since Muhammad -- and had been forced at certain times to wear yellow-badges, distinctive clothing, live in ghettos or marked-off neighborhoods, forcifully converted, denied equal rights, denied a voice in legal court, and officially humiliated by being denied the right to build a house higher than a Muslim's, look directly into the eyes of a Muslim, or even ride a horse. Anti-Semitism in the Middle East was caused by the Qu'ran and the Haditha, the Islamic scriptures which blame Jews for rejecting the "Final Prophet" and generally being a wicked people.

other than the fact that some people just can not accept that the Jews have created and continue to create a victim nation. Furthermore, it is double-standard to treat the israeli-Palestinian situation as off-topic when the term/concept of ''anti-semitism'' does not even distinguish between what is against Jews and what is against the state of israel.

Its not a double-standard to try and limit the scope of this discussion to its original question -- the causes of anti-Semitism. Yes, the topic is related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, but out of respect for the other people here I was willing not to "go there." But if you insist, so be it.

Where exactly did I ever write that ''Jewish suffering is over exaggerated'' ? As I have written many times, I am not denying any thing that has happened to Jews.

So are you, or are you not, claiming that Jewish suffering has been over-exaggerated? Any common-sense look at your posts would tell you that this was your entire point. And if it is, then that doesnt necessarily mean that you are denying this suffering, only that you think its over-blown.

I am only pointing out the fact that the Jewish people are not the only, the most , uniqely and especially persecuted/discriminated people as it is believed by most people , the idea of which is a big factor of the ''victimhood=the chosen one=special nation'' Jewish mentality.

Again, you feel this need to "only point out the fact that Jewish people" are not the only/most oppressed people. So good for you! You are entitled to your opinion. But then you go on to blame "the Jewish mentality" and the "chosen" concept as the roots of anti-Semitism, which is where your argument becomes unsound. First of all, there is not one Jewish mentality, we are a diverse people with many different viewpoints, theological and political opinions, and streams. Second of all, our idea of being a Chosen People was not a consequence of something negative that others did unto us, but simply because we chose 'Elohim (God.)
 

What proof do I need to show when I am only pointing out the fact that the Jews are not the only victims or especially persecuted/discriminated people?

Nobody disputes this obvious fact-- what's offensive is your assumption that we Jews think this way. The "proof" that I requested was concrete evidence that shows Jews indeed think or believe that they have a monopoly on suffering, as you maintain.
 

1. regarding Spanish inquisition, It was directed at anybody who was not catholic and anybody who was considered heretic.

The fact that you write ''Jews have been especially picked on'' is a very good proof of what I have been saying about the Jewish mentality.

The main victims or target of the Inquisition, the Holocaust, and the Cossack pogroms in Eastern Europe were all Jews. That does not mean there were not other religio-ethnic groups who suffered at the hands of these three events, or even that in some cases they suffered more than some Jews, but the point is that, historically, when we are referring to persecution of minorities within Muslim and Christian societies, the Jewish People will most likely come out as suffering the "most" (at least in terms of quantity.) The reason for this is not mystical, it doesn't need to be explained away by "chosen-ness" or a conspiracy to be perceived as the victim -- it simply the consequence of how Jews are negatively portrayed in the Christian and Islamic scriptures and traditions, which sets the scene for persecution in a way that is not the same for other people who are not labeled as "killers of the prophets."

Personally I do not care how loud the voice of the Jewish people is. I am only concerned about the fact that many other victims are being ignored or forgotten under this loud voice, that this loud voice created the ignorant term/concept of ''ant-semitic'' under which so many people are being judged/labelled unfairly or victimized, and that the voice is so loud the Jews do not realize or choose to ignore what they are doing to the Palestinians.

Again you blame Jews for the supposed lack of attention given to other peoples' pain. Again, Jews did not created anti-Semitism, it was a movement in Germany in the 19th century, based on a 2,000 year tradition of special hatred of Jews for theological reasons. And there are many liberal Jews who fight for Palestinian rights. The Palestinian suffering, caused largely to their own decisions to try to destroy the Israelis, as well as their exploitation at the hands of the Arab League, is well-known within Israeli society, where the press is free and open, unlike in the Palestinian Authority -- where dissenters are regularly killed if they don't walk with the party-line. And do you know that the only group of refugees in this world who are entitled to their own department within the UN -- is the Palestinians? (UNRWA) -- are not the lives of African refugees equal to that of Palestinians?

Why is it becoming obscene?

Because where others here have offered legitimate criticism by assigning partial blame of Jewish suffering unto Jewish practices, you go one step farther by blaming the entire anti-Semitic concept on Jews, essentially blaming the victims, which is blind-sighted and dangerous, to use your terminology.

Just because someone is a holocaust survivor, it does not mean that you can not tell the truth to them does it?

What is the truth to you, Omshanti -- that the Holocaust survivor is to blame for being in Aushwitz, because the Jews created anti-Semitism?  

Is it that offensive to point out the fact that there are many other discriminated/persecuted people and that the Jews are not the only, the most or uniquely and especially victimized people as they have been able to convince the world (and themselves)?

Its not offensive to point out that other people are victims, it is offensive to claim that the Jews have convinced the entire world that they are the special, persecuted peoples -- or to claim that this is indeed what Jews believe, when many of us Jews do not!

What you are doing is to use the pain of holocaust victims to hide behind the victimhood and twist and distract the argument.

What you are doing is blaming Jews for inventing anti-Semitism in order to de-legitimize the state of Israel and Zionism. This is exactly what is meant by "the new anti-semitism."
 

Oh come on, Don't try to convince me with that line of ''our suffering allowed us to empathize with their suffering'', when Palestinians are suffering right under the nose of Jewish ignorance in apartheid Israel.

You reveal your political bias here -- the American-Jewish contribution to the Civil Rights movement in the 40's and 50's had nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict. I was using the example of Jews and Blacks marching together in the streets, getting arrested together, singing songs together, dying together for equal rights -- as an example of how Jews are not self-absorbed with their own suffering, as you claim. The fact that you change the subject back to Palestinian suffering shows that you have a hidden agenda here, an ideological axe to grind against Israel. And Israel is not "apartheid" -- rather its the Palestinian and Arab worlds, that are practicing what Jane Goodall calls "gender apartheid" against women, gays, and of course, non-Muslim infidels.

I never denied the Jewish nature of holocauset, but only pointed out the fact that the nature of holocaust included many non-jews whose victimhood has been mostly forgotten, such as the estimated 500000 to 800000 Gypsies....

Again, I don't disagree with you that other people have suffered in the Holocaust. No Jew in his right mind would argue against that. But your pre-assumption is that Jews believe they are the only sufferers, but as I showed you on Yad Vashem's website (in Israel by the way) -- that is simply not true. We Jews give respect and honor the memory of non-Jewish victims too.

First you accuse me of denying the holocaust and now you accuse me of comparing people's sufferings. Is it that bad to point out about the non-jewish nature of the holocaust?

I have never accused you of denying the Holocaust. And its not bad to point out the non-Jewish nature of Holocaust victims, but it is bad to claim that Jews are ignoring or drowning out that truth through their own misery. In some cases, Jews are the only ones who have preserved the memories of acts of kindness by non-Jewish people, and acts of suffering encountered by fellow humans who happen not to be Jewish.

On the other hand, in my opinion the moment you think that you are the only, the most or uniquely and especially victimized one, then you are comparing people's sufferings.

As a Jew, I don't believe I am a part of the only people who have suffered, but I do think Jews have encountered a special amount of persecution within the Christian and Muslim worlds that is caused simply by the religious portrayals of Jews in the scriptures, such as "Christ-Killers", that is not attributed to other persecuted peoples like Assyrians, Tibetans, Gypsys, or Calvinists.

Doesn't the fact that you are so paranoid about the mentionings of other victims show the Jewish mentality that I have been saying all along.

I'm not paranoid, I'm just suspicious of your motives -- since you keep interjecting the Palestinians into this discussion, and claiming that Jews have invented anti-Semitism is akin to saying Blacks invented racism and slavery.

First of all how can iran be against Semitic peoples when so many Iranians are Semitic themselves.

Persian, the traditional language of Iran, is an Indo-European language, not a Semitic one. The very word "Iran" means Aryan. Yes, there are Semitic-speakers in Iran, but that doesn't mean there is no anti-Semitism as defined as hostility towards Jews.

If by ''anti-semitic'' you mean anti-Jew, let me inform you that Iran is not against the Jewish people at all.

I don't think the majority of the Iranian people are against Jews. But anti-Jewish sentiment exists nontheless -- thanks in large part to a radical Islamic government that just about 6 years ago imprisoned and tortured a group of Jews as being "Zionist spies" without any evidence, and was forced to release most of them due to international pressure.

Iran is simply against the state of israel due to israel's unfair establishment.

Is that why Iran responded to the Muhammad Cartoons in the Danish newspaper with a "Holocaust Cartoon Contest"? After all, it was the Zionists who forced the Danes to publish those cartoons, right?

However somehow the whole world has been convinced that Iran is ''anti-semitic'' and so come all those propaganda and mistranslations to prove Iran's ''anti-semiticness''.

The whole world is convinced of Iranian anti-Semitism because its clear that their leadership is threatening to destroy Israel on the one hand, and is stubbornly developing a nuclear program on the other hand. Meanwhile, it funnels money, weapons, and training to Islamic terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas that make no distinction between Jews and Zionists in their threats to harm, destroy, and conquer.








Edited by Yisahshkhahr - 18-Mar-2007 at 14:49

Originally posted by Maharbbal Originally posted by think An thats exactly why Jews have been targetted. If Jews truly wanted to assimilate, the lists of persecutions against Jews would be much smaller. You mean if there were no Jews any more, there would be no more persecussion? That's bright. But, wait, lets assume you are a protestant, if protestants had remained catholic there would have been no such a thing as the religious wars and tensions in Europe in the early modern period. There would be no USA even� 2500 years of Jewish discrimation means nothing in todays mindset. Meaning? I do believe Jews in the media love playing the victim, because being the victim= money. Of course your regular Jewish guy might not, but i think the words "nazi" an "anti-semetic" are being worn out. Me too I think it has been overused, but reading your post I pretty convinced anti-semitism still exists big time! Heres what an Israeli military man said "Irans bombs are like concentration camps" So Israeli bombs dont burn an kill, yeh exactly. The fact is that there are idiots everywhere� specially in the armies. think, if you intend to have some hard core statements go head, but they have to be supported by evidence. I seen none here, consequently I take your post as being merely offensive.

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Also as Jews remained Jews and didn't assimilate this caused mistrust as they kept tight nit socities to keep their religion and culture alive

An thats exactly why Jews have been targetted. If Jews truly wanted to assimilate, the lists of persecutions against Jews would be much smaller.

2500 years of Jewish discrimation means nothing in todays mindset.

I do believe Jews in the media love playing the victim, because being the victim= money. Of course your regular Jewish guy might not, but i think the words "nazi" an "anti-semetic" are being worn out.

Heres what an Israeli military man said "Irans bombs are like concentration camps" So Israeli bombs dont burn an kill, yeh exactly.












Edited by think - 18-Mar-2007 at 07:54