WHERE ARE TURKS FROM?

Gok_Toruk

Just as well as Turkmens believe KorOghly was a Turkmen, Ozbeks believe he was an Ozbek. People like KorOghlu or even Manas are “Common Turkic Heritage” which you can’t USE them to show a certain kind of relationship.

You’re facing a misconception. For sure, we’re all culturally and linguistically related people. I’m talking about geographical groups (mentioned in old Inscriptions as ‘bodun’ which were distinct (politically and geographically) people).

It’s like saying “Hazara”s of Iran are Iranian and not of Turkic & Mongolian origin, just because they live among Iranians. “Daz”es, also as Vambery mentioned, are Ozbek.

See Bulldog, I might not be the only Turkmen, you’re right; but you’re not a Turkmen, at all. So, how come you expect me to believe the way you describe my people?

Alright, Oghuz and Chagatai are really alike. But for sure, they’re not the same. The grammer, the way words happen to appear in the sentence, especially use of of suffixes are a bit different. That’s why Linguists have placed them in different language groups (or should I say, dialects). Ozbek “Qara Qursoq” speak a dialect of “Chagatai” which, although easily understandable for a Turkmen, but differs from the language Turkmen “Qara Qursoq” speaks.

You said it; “we can express any view and opinion we desire”. Our story (Turkmens of Turkey and Turkmens of Turkmenistan are the same, because their name are the same) is just like this case: because Turkic speaking people of Iranian Kerman (close to Zabylystan and Buluches) are called ‘Turk’, so they’re the same people as Turks of Turkey are. And one can continue, but they are really darker and you can perceive tinge of Mongoloid population among them. Their language is somehow similar to Northern Horasan Turkic which is almost Chagatai. So, why Turks of Turkey speak a dialect of Oghuz? …

According to your definition, a black-skinned Iranian Zabyli who speaks an Indo-European language, has a different culture, can believe he’s a Turk if he speaks Turkic. Who can tell he’s not a Turk? In fact, let people of world speak Turkic and then they’re all Turk.

You’re not a Turkmen; simply because you can’t speak Turkmen (alright, a few similar words which is common in all Turkic languages). You can’t distinguish a Turkmen from a Qara Qalpaq, from a Northern Horasan Turk, from a Qyzylbash. You don’t know cultural elements of a Turkmen society like “kuren”, for instance. And you can’t teach me (a Turkmen) how they are. Even the Tekke tongue you’re talking about is not what you might think.

The exact word in Mongolia is “Anghara” which is slighter form of “Anqara”. The Turkish equivalent is ‘Ankara’. You see lots of similar words among nomads.

See Bulldog, I’m not the one who knows everything. I might be wrong. You might be right. But if you were in my shoes (it’s not only my shoes; this is a public forum) would you believe your own statements when you’re using only names? They are Salyr? Alright, please enlighten us with Salyr language and Salyr culture they have. You’re only referring to numbers and population.

It’s like saying “Turkmen” and “Anatolian Turkish” are the same; because they’re both Oghuz Turkic. Uighur and Ozbek are both Chagatai, but not the same dialects.

I’ve noticed something. First, you mention “Chagatay Turki is infact similar to Oghuz Turki”. Now you say, “Well Ozbek and Uygur is the same language. These are dialects, Oghuz Dialect is another one.”. And you continue, “What classifies as different unmutually intellegible is for example Chuvash or Siberian Turkic languages.”.

Uighur, Ozbek, Turkish, Azeri and Turkmen are ally mutually understandable (it varies from dialect to dialect). But these are not the same language groups. Two of them, Chagatai, three of them Oghuz.

“Claiming that 9 Oghuz and Uygur are alien to each other, or that they're different groups or seperate is pretty ridiculous to say the least”? That’s what written in Turkic inscriptions. You can argue old Turkic “Qaqan”s and their lack of knowledge, historians and modern linguists.

By the way, I’ve given, even the page numbers for the case you want to check them out. Because seems like you haven’t even studied the famous Turkish Historian’s book “Oghuzes (Turkmens)”. You might need the ISBN numbers also, huh?

I’m really eager to see your Central Asian friends who agree with you on our topic. Why don’t you bring your Central Asian friends who believe they are the same people as Turkish people are? I’m not making joke of your posts, I’m serious. This way, I’ll be sure I’m too much radical in Central Asia to think Turkish people are different people.

Turkmen music is significantly different from that of Anatolian. Even our major music instruments are completely different.

Oh, when talking about modern official tongue, I forgot to tell you (now I remember, because you mentioned literature) that prior to this official tongue (that’s only official; because Tekke is the most powerful tribe now), official Turkmen which was used in literature, etc was a Northern Turkmen dialect.

Turkish carpet is a bit like Iranian or should I say Azeri carpets while Turkmen carpet is famous for their shamanistic and nature-based pattern. You believe they’re the same? Talk about the elements a Turkmen carpet use and you observe it only in a Turkish carpet.

About food, first of all, the ‘Chorba” you’re mentioning is Iranian ‘Shurba’. Also the Turkish “ekmek” which is ‘bread’ is not the same thing in Turkmen. Turkmen ‘ekmek’ is not bread. “Ayran” is a common Altaic drink. Turkmen has not got over 100 bread types.

Now, if you belive you’ve got them too, tell me what exactly a “Qatlama”, a “Borek”,


Edited by gok_toruk - 18-Feb-2007 at 07:09

Edited by Bulldog - 16-Feb-2007 at 18:28

To both of you Barbar and Bulldog:

Nice challenge so far, indeed. I'm still here to whenever you continue. That's promising a great series of arguements. But first you've got to remember something:

I may (or should I say, definately) seem idiot, or kind of a crap to you. But whatever your conception is, try to be polite. No reason to offend me, because I haven't offended you so far. Have I used any impolite sentence or something which means impolite? What do you mean "you're wasting my time" (and like talking a young boy, smiling), "where on earth...", "... be able to understand", "make a history of your own", etc? I didn't force you to write replies to my posts. It's your own choice. By the way, I can't tolerate as much as a child can do.

You're a moderator Barbar. People would take you as model here. I don't want you to be polite for me, but if not so, don't expect or BAN people when they're against you. It has got nothing to do with me? Alright, but first, be more polite against people. To be respected by respect, requries treating others the same way.

Also, bring proofs, books, documents with the exact page and if that's true, I'll show AE where the page is located online.

Edited by gok_toruk - 16-Feb-2007 at 13:03

You didn't get my point. Turkic inscriptions stated that 9 Oghuzes were different socieites from Basmils and Izgils. How come you classify them all as 9 Oghuz?

I've talked about the Turkmen tongue be of eastern origin:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14659&KW=Northern+Turkmen+vs%2E+Turkish

You'll find the a few of (only a few of) differences listed there.

I'm making a history of my own? So, go challenge people like "Ergin", "Ramstedt" and "Faruk Sumer'.

You said I was making a history of mine. That's the story I refer to.

Do you believe all these common words are only incidental?

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15225&PN=1

Yes, and you can complain all these professors because of wrong materials:

John Bengston [Association For The Study Of Language In Pre-History]

Anna Dybo [Russian State University For The Humanities]

Murray Gell-Mann [Santa Fe Institute]

Alexander Militaryov [Jewish University In Moscow]

Oleg Mudrak [Russian State University For The Humanities]

Sergei Nikolayev [Institute of Slavic Studies of the Academy of Science, Moscow]

Ilya Peiros [Santa Fe Institute]

Merritt Ruhlen [Stanford University]

George Starostin [Russian State University For The Humanities]

Sergei Starostin [Russian State University For The Humanities]

Timothy Usher[Santa Fe Institute]

William S.-Y. Wang [University Of California, Berkeley; City University of Hong Kong]

Paul Whitehouse [Santa Fe Institute]
The main refrences are:

Database Construction for World Languge Families (Merritt Ruhlen)

Reconstruction of Proto-Altaic (S. Starostin/A. Dybo/O. Mudrak)

Please Barbar, bring proofs when talking about Korea. You're only denying, without any certain document. We'll see about it when you provide us with proof.



Edited by gok_toruk - 16-Feb-2007 at 13:14

Originally posted by gok_toruk Hi Shinai. A few hours ago, something's come up and I had to take care of it. Now, I'll go on with the rest: To Barbar, I should say: 1- 9 Oghuzes who lived on the coasts of Tugla and were consisted of 9 tribes and had the ruler title of �Qaqan�, were different from Uighurs who lived on the coasts of Silenga and were consisted of 10 tribes and were ruled by kings who had the title �Il Teber�.

Gok_Toruk

Edited by Bulldog - 15-Feb-2007 at 18:54

Gok_Toruk

Edited by Bulldog - 15-Feb-2007 at 12:03

And about Korean, Japanese and their relationship with Tungusic (or should I say Altaic people), please see the following pages (although the topic is closed, now):

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15225&PN=1

A research has been going on over the past several decades that appears to indicate that larger genetic groupings are not only possible, but indeed quite plausible. It can be shown that most of the world's language families can be classified into roughly a dozen large groupings, or macrofamilies.

A primary goal of the research is to provide a detailed classification of these languages, organizing them into a genealogical tree similar to the accepted classification of biological species.

Now, about the words, I should say, they're not selected as you might think. Classical historical linguistics has developed a very powerful tool - the comparative method - that allows the reconstruction of unattested language stages, so-called proto-languages. It turns out that whereas modern languages may vary significantly, protolanguages in various cases tend to be much more similar to one other. This is the case, e.g., with Indo-European, Uralic and Altaic: modern English, Finnish, and Turkish may have almost nothing in common, but their respective ancestors - Proto-Indo-European, Proto-Uralic and Proto-Altaic - appear to have many more common traits and common vocabulary. This means that the possibility exists of extending the time perspective and reconstructing even earlier stages of human language and much of this research has already been conducted.

The total process is done by Modern computer technology. A large set of computer databases is already available and many of them are already online. These databases include Altaic, Dravidian, (North) Caucasian, Yenisseian, Sino-Tibetan, Indo-European, Austroasiatic, Chukchi-Kamchatkan, and Semitic. For many other language families the databases are in the stage of preparation.

The participants in the project are:

John Bengston [Association For The Study Of Language In Pre-History]

Anna Dybo [Russian State University For The Humanities]

Murray Gell-Mann [Santa Fe Institute]

Alexander Militaryov [Jewish University In Moscow]

Oleg Mudrak [Russian State University For The Humanities]

Sergei Nikolayev [Institute of Slavic Studies of the Academy of Science, Moscow]

Ilya Peiros [Santa Fe Institute]

Merritt Ruhlen [Stanford University]

George Starostin [Russian State University For The Humanities]

Sergei Starostin [Russian State University For The Humanities]

Timothy Usher[Santa Fe Institute]

William S.-Y. Wang [University Of California, Berkeley; City University of Hong Kong]

Paul Whitehouse [Santa Fe Institute]
The main refrences are:

Database Construction for World Languge Families (Merritt Ruhlen)

Reconstruction of Proto-Altaic (S. Starostin/A. Dybo/O. Mudrak)


Edited by gok_toruk - 15-Feb-2007 at 05:57

Hi Shinai.

A few hours ago, something's come up and I had to take care of it. Now, I'll go on with the rest:

To Barbar, I should say:

1- 9 Oghuzes who lived on the coasts of Tugla and were consisted of 9 tribes and had the ruler title of ‘Qaqan’, were different from Uighurs who lived on the coasts of Silenga and were consisted of 10 tribes and were ruled by kings who had the title ‘Il Teber’.

2- Edizes were 9 Oghuzes’ neighbors. They were considered two different ‘bodun’ according to Turkic inscriptions.

3- Tardushes’ homeland is not known, but they lived somewhere close to �t�ken. Their king had the title of ‘Shat’. Bilge Qaqan ruled them, under the title of ‘Shat’ for 19 years. Years later, they joined Uighurs.

4- T�lises were ruled by a king who had the title
‘Yapqu’.

5- Even ‘Il Etmish Qaqan’ (Uighur Qaqan) in his last inscription which was written in 759 or 760 A.D, said: ’10 Uighur and 9 Oghuz lived there for hundred years’. Note he mentioned them separately as different 'bodun's.

6- When Uighurs were defeated by Qyrqizes, they were called ’13 Uighurs who lived around Ordu Baliq’ (they escaped to China) and also ’15 Uighurs who escaped to west’. Out of this 15 Uighurs, a group escaped to Tibet, and a group to Kansu where they ruled for a short period of time. Later, they were called ‘Sari Uighur’. Seems like they were, at different times, kind of a confederation, rather than a distinct geographical group like 9 Oghuzes.

7- The nine tribes you mentioned, are from Chinese resources about Uighur confederation. It’s correct that after collapse of Kok Turks, a part of old 9 Oghuzes (not all of them) migrated to China, but most of them went to Tatars and Khitays (these three groups were always united in most of the wars, as is mentioned in Turkic and Uighur inscriptions).

8- ‘Quny’, ’Tongro’, Qitays and Tatars were accomplice in wars with Uighurs (734 A.D). Uighurs did not manage to defeat them (except for 9 Tatars). So, how could you classify ‘Tongro’ and ‘Quny’ as Uighurs? What’s more, Uighurs were 10 Uighurs, but seems like you mean they were 18 tribes, nine inner and nine outer.

9- Not all 9 Oghuz tribes joined Uighurs. How come you believe nine outer Uighur tribes were 9 Oghuzes?

Edited by gok_toruk - 15-Feb-2007 at 05:59