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The New Middle East |
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Mortaza 
Tsar 
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: The New Middle EastPosted: 14-Dec-2006 at 05:38 |
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Would you like to tell me exactly where Turkish people don't refer to themselves as Turks
Where did I said this? I am talking about first thing they said about themself. I mean priority.
and I wont accuse anyone with fasism because of a pool. It would be stupid to accuse messenger.
who are you to say that a person who calls himself a Turk cannot also be a Muslim when the majority of people have this view.
where did I said this?
What I wont to say is that, religion is more important than nation.(For Turkish people) That is all.
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The Grim Reaper
Samurai 
Joined: 08-Nov-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 136 |
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Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 16:15 |
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Bulldog,
I am aware of the profound impact that the Turkish and Turkic peoples had on the spread of Islam, and the advances that were made during Ottoman rule in Asia Minor, and Turkish rule in India. It's truly a beautiful history, and very fascinating to me (especially the Ottoman and Turkic Mughal Empires).
And you are absolutely right, in my view, Turk and Muslim are almost interchangeable and NOT mutually exclusive, and a person can be both a Turk and a Muslim.
btw: Am I still invited to visit your country?
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Bulldog
Caliph 
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 08:28 |
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Which Polls, conducted by who, using which sampling techniques, questioning what proportion of the population, was their bias involved, was an equal socio-demographic segmentation asked etc etc This is deeply hypocritical because if somebody was to post a poll showing the opposite you'd be the first to be ranting and raving calling everyone fascist.
Presenting your subjective views as being the "norm", is not only ridiculous its also mis-leading to forumer's who don't know Turkey very well. Would you like to tell me exactly where Turkish people don't refer to themselves as Turks
and why being a Muslim conflicts with being a Turk, ie who are you to say that a person who calls himself a Turk cannot also be a Muslim when the majority of people have this view.This is nothing that discrete dicatorism.
GR
Or do you choose to sidestep the 1000 plus years of influence that Islam has had on Turkish and Turkic culture and history?
Good point because during those thousand years the Turkish language rose to become a major language, joining the rank of Arabic and Persian in the Muslim world. Turkic culture was enriched during this period, it became highly stylised and elaborate, literature, architecture, cuisine, the sciences etc all flourished.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
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Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 23:57 |
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I personally consider myself a Turk first, then a Bulgarian citizen, and religion plays very little role in my identity. And I can safely say this for most Turks in Bulgaria as well. Religion becomes important only in times of confrontation with Bulgarians, as it is a useful tool to strengthen Turkish unity.
arent you atheist? why should you care for religion.
anyway, acording to last pools, More than 40% of Turkish people call themself as muslim, and less than 20% of Turkish people call themself turks.
So I think, our people showed their decision. Other called himself as citizen of Turkey, kurd ext.
I remember a pool about iranians too and their preference was islam too.
I am sorry but changing facts are not realy possible.
^^ Is Islam not a significant part of Turkish identity, however?
Of course It is acording to last pool, 90% of Turkish people call themself as religious.
Or do you choose to sidestep the 1000 plus years of influence that Islam has had on Turkish and Turkic culture and history?
Islam and langauge are only things that bind turkish people to each other.(Except citizenship) I should also add islam is more binding power than langauge or citizenship. We can see this with the islamic votes at kurdish majority cities.
Of course some people does not thing so but this is only their ideas. Pool or elections dont support their ideas.
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The Grim Reaper
Samurai
Joined: 08-Nov-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 136 |
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Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 18:12 |
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^^ Is Islam not a significant part of Turkish identity, however? Or do you choose to sidestep the 1000 plus years of influence that Islam has had on Turkish and Turkic culture and history?
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bg_turk
Sultan 
Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
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Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 18:02 |
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Well said. I cannot really speak about Turks in Turkey but most of my relatives who live there despise bringing religion into politics and are staunchly secular, and I am sure they would be opposed to any union or ummah with the Arabs. I personally consider myself a Turk first, then a Bulgarian citizen, and religion plays very little role in my identity. And I can safely say this for most Turks in Bulgaria as well. Religion becomes important only in times of confrontation with Bulgarians, as it is a useful tool to strengthen Turkish unity. |
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The Grim Reaper
Samurai
Joined: 08-Nov-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 136 |
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Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 17:50 |
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His sources come from Pakistani propaganda sites as well. That was what I was trying to prove by posting that link from the Kashmiri Pundit website - the bias involved. |
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bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
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Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 17:42 |
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Your source is an Indian propaganda webpage.
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The Grim Reaper
Samurai
Joined: 08-Nov-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 136 |
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Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 16:55 |
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The majority of the researchers bear Pakistani names. Your link is still not credible, genius. Try again.
btw:
"....over 95% of the Muslims of India are converts from Hinduism, and of Indian origin. But since they have now become Muslim, what Babar, a foreign Muslim invader built by demolishing a Hindu - Indian - shrine is more important than the Indian heritage. For an Indian once he converts to Islam, his Indian heritage is to be forgotten. Tabligh jamaat is working hard to remove all vestiges of Indianness from the daily mores of converted Indians ..."
^^ The same would be true of Pakistani Muslims from Kashmir, Punjab, and Sindh. Edited by The Grim Reaper - 06-Dec-2006 at 17:00 |
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TeldeInduz
General 
Joined: 07-Mar-2006 Location: Paraguay Online Status: Offline Posts: 857 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 15:48 |
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Try again, the study was published in the American Journal of Human Genetics by researchers who've probably got more important things on their mind than to want to prove some sort of link to other ethnic groups..
 If you read the paper you'd also find the following "Pakistanis"
Raheel Qamar,1,2 Qasim Ayub,1,2 Aisha Mohyuddin,1,2 Agnar Helgason,3 Kehkashan Mazhar,
Atika Mansoor,1 Tatiana Zerjal,2 Chris Tyler-Smith,2 and S. Qasim Mehdi1
1 Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Division, Dr. A. Q. Khan Research Laboratories, Islamabad; 2Cancer Research Campaign, ChromosomeMolecular Biology Group, Department of Biochemistry, and 3Institute of Biological Anthropology, University of Oxford, Oxford, UnitedKingdom; and deCODE Genetics, Reykjavik The "silly" freepages site is one of the largest genealogy sites on the net, and that page is written by Western Europeans with an interest in the surname Garvey, obviously.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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The Grim Reaper
Samurai
Joined: 08-Nov-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 136 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 14:33 |
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No, genius. The little reference there was in the link you previously provided, directed users to a Pakistani study. Furthermore, this silly "freepages" website of your is not historically credible.
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TeldeInduz
General
Joined: 07-Mar-2006 Location: Paraguay Online Status: Offline Posts: 857 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 13:23 |
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Lol!! Since when would a Pakistani be interested in making a website about the Garvery surname?
same website..clearly not Pakistani..
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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The Grim Reaper
Samurai
Joined: 08-Nov-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 136 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 12:56 |
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The website link you posted which makes a minor reference to Pakistani genetic makeup when compared to that of Turkey's, was written by a group of Indic Pakistanis. I would hardly lend much credence to a group of Indic Pakistanis who would do anything to shed their Hindu and Indian heritage and adopt that of peoples they viewed as superior to them, in this case, the Turks.
btw: That website is not credible at all. I can find some random BS on the Internet as well, just like the one you've found, anyone can post anything on the World Wide Web, but does this make it credible? Now, that is a different story. Your links are partisan, without merit, and utter nonsense. I can find you links from Hindu nationalist, White supremacist, Islamist, Zionist, etc. websites - would that make the information on these sites, accurate?? I think not! So why bother me with some link from a Pakistani nationalist website???
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TeldeInduz
General
Joined: 07-Mar-2006 Location: Paraguay Online Status: Offline Posts: 857 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 20:19 |
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Yep, Pakistan did exist before 1947. It came under various names and various Empires. But the land, the people never changed. Their cultures changed with time from one thing to another. Names are quite unimportant. Afghanistan didnt exist before the 17th century in this case, but everyone knows that Pashtuns, Tajiks, Uzbeks all occupied the land of Afghanistan much before then. Everyone knows that Pashtuns, Balochs, Punjabis and Sindhis occupied the land of Pakistan way before it was named so. Even if you want to go this way, the S in Pakistan stands for Sindh, the A for Afghania, the P for Punjab, etc, so Pakistan is an abbreviation for lands that have existed for millenia in fact.
Perhaps??? Hard genetic and historical evidence suggest that THEY DO HAVE HINDU and INDIAN ancestry The Muhajirs you refer to form about 1 in perhaps 15 Pakistanis today. They do have Indian ancestry, and 14/15ths of Pakistan does not have Indian ancestry. The Muhajirs might have Hindu ancestry, since not all of India was Hindu through it's history, in fact Buddhism was also quite common especially in some of the Eastern states of current India. The people from the land of modern Pakistan have not had any Hindu ancestry, just Buddhist and Vedic, as Hinduism in its current form originated from the Ganges in East India and did not reach as far West as Pakistan (as mentioned in the historical accounts of Mahabharatta).
BULLSH*T! Where is the proof?? And it better come from a credible and neutral source, not some self-hating Pakistani website. Allow me to repeat myself ever so eloquently: "Ancestry from Pakistan?? Pakistan??? PAKISTAN???? Pakistan didn't exist 59 years ago!! YOU WERE ALL INDIANS PRIOR TO AUGUST 14TH 1947!"
You are a liar! You do not have Pashtun heritage because no Pashtun or Baloch would ever identify themselves with Indic Muslims, i.e. Punjabi, Kashmiri, Mohajir, Sindhi - such as the one you are! The Pashtuns and Baloch are far too proud and only align themselves with fellow Iranian/Iranic peoples! You are either very sadly mistaken, or you are an Indic Muslim of Hindu heritage who tries and tries to identify himself with Middle Eastern Muslims because you are too ashamed of your Indian and Hindu heritage! This is a most common trait amongst Indic Muslims!
I call BULLSH*T! Afghans are not related to any Pakistanis outside of the Pashtuns and Baloch who reside in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, the North West Frontier Province, and the Balochistan province. The Punjabis, Kashmiris, and Sindhis are all related to their kinsmen across the border in India in that they are descended from lowcaste Hindus who converted to Islam. See, you are an Indic Pakistani; otherwise you would not be so adamant about denying your Hindu heritage and trying to relate yourself to Afghans! The Afghans hate the Indic Pakistanis from Punjab, Kashmir, and Sindh, and would never want to align themselves with you!
More lies. If you had family in Afghanistan, and if you were of Pashtun heritage, then YOU WOULD NEVER REFER TO YOURSELF AS "INDUZ" which implies relationship to the Indus River, which is in the INDIC portion of Pakistan, which automatically implies that you are of Hindi and Indian heritage!!!!
More proof of an Indic Pakistani who is ashamed of his Hindu and Indian heritage and tries to align himself with Turks, Afghans, and other Middle Eastern Muslim groups he views as superior to him. If the Indic Muslims of Pakistan, the Punjabis, Kashmiris, and Sindhis are related to Turks and Afghans as you claim, then WHY do they speak Indic languages? WHY do their women wear RED wedding outfits on their wedding day instead of WHITE ones like the Turks and Afghans do? WHY do you eat INDIAN food? WHY DO YOU LOOK INDIAN and not Turkish or Afghan?? The graphs below show a comparison between the R1a1 results from Turkey with those seen by Helagason for HG3s in Iceland. As can be seen, the two sets of results have virtually identical allele frequency graphs - except for DYS19. Qamar's study of Y chromosomes in Pakistan found a modal haplotype for HG3 that differed by only a single step at DYS389ii from that seen for R1a1 in Turkey. BUT .... the Pashtuns and Baloch DO LOOK IRANIAN, IRANIC?? and they DO NOT look Indian or Indic and they DO NOT LOOK anything like Pakistani Punjabis, Kashmiris, and Sindhis?? WHYYYYYYYYY?????
Do you have a valid counterargument? Didn't think so.
Keep denying it all you want, but you and I both know that you are not an Afghan, nor a Pashtun, nor even a Baloch. You are a Punjabi, Kashmiri, Sindhi, or Mohajir all of these peoples are descended from Hindus from India, who were forcibly converted to Islam by the Turks. Genetic testing reveals that greater than 90% of these peoples Pakistani Punjabis, Kashmiris, Sindhis, and Mohajirs are descended from lowcaste, untouchable Hindus who accepted Islam (and the remaining 10% from Hindus of other castes), and you still deny your Hindu and Indian heritage? Post a picture of yourself, and I will guarantee that you bear resemblance to Hindus more than any Turk or other Middle Easterner. These OWNAGE sessions brought to you courtesy of The Grim Reaper |
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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The Grim Reaper
Samurai
Joined: 08-Nov-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 136 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 15:12 |
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Ancestry from Pakistan?? Pakistan??? PAKISTAN???? Pakistan didn't exist 59 years ago!! YOU WERE ALL INDIANS PRIOR TO AUGUST 14TH 1947!
Perhaps??? Hard genetic and historical evidence suggest that THEY DO HAVE HINDU and INDIAN ancestry
BULLSH*T! Where is the proof?? And it better come from a credible and neutral source, not some self-hating Pakistani website.
Allow me to repeat myself ever so eloquently: "Ancestry from Pakistan?? Pakistan??? PAKISTAN???? Pakistan didn't exist 59 years ago!! YOU WERE ALL INDIANS PRIOR TO AUGUST 14TH 1947!"
You are a liar! You do not have Pashtun heritage because no Pashtun or Baloch would ever identify themselves with Indic Muslims, i.e. Punjabi, Kashmiri, Mohajir, Sindhi - such as the one you are! The Pashtuns and Baloch are far too proud and only align themselves with fellow Iranian/Iranic peoples! You are either very sadly mistaken, or you are an Indic Muslim of Hindu heritage who tries and tries to identify himself with Middle Eastern Muslims because you are too ashamed of your Indian and Hindu heritage! This is a most common trait amongst Indic Muslims!
I call BULLSH*T! Afghans are not related to any Pakistanis outside of the Pashtuns and Baloch who reside in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, the North West Frontier Province, and the Balochistan province. The Punjabis, Kashmiris, and Sindhis are all related to their kinsmen across the border in India in that they are descended from lowcaste Hindus who converted to Islam. See, you are an Indic Pakistani; otherwise you would not be so adamant about denying your Hindu heritage and trying to relate yourself to Afghans! The Afghans hate the Indic Pakistanis from Punjab, Kashmir, and Sindh, and would never want to align themselves with you!
More lies. If you had family in Afghanistan, and if you were of Pashtun heritage, then YOU WOULD NEVER REFER TO YOURSELF AS "INDUZ" which implies relationship to the Indus River, which is in the INDIC portion of Pakistan, which automatically implies that you are of Hindi and Indian heritage!!!!
More proof of an Indic Pakistani who is ashamed of his Hindu and Indian heritage and tries to align himself with Turks, Afghans, and other Middle Eastern Muslim groups he views as superior to him. If the Indic Muslims of Pakistan, the Punjabis, Kashmiris, and Sindhis are related to Turks and Afghans as you claim, then WHY do they speak Indic languages? WHY do their women wear RED wedding outfits on their wedding day instead of WHITE ones like the Turks and Afghans do? WHY do you eat INDIAN food? WHY DO YOU LOOK INDIAN and not Turkish or Afghan?? BUT .... the Pashtuns and Baloch DO LOOK IRANIAN, IRANIC?? and they DO NOT look Indian or Indic and they DO NOT LOOK anything like Pakistani Punjabis, Kashmiris, and Sindhis?? WHYYYYYYYYY?????
Do you have a valid counterargument? Didn't think so.
Yes, it is a great link in that it is very accessible and readable in that even if the person that one is debating with in this care, YOU has limited comprehension of the English language, they are able to grasp Wikipedia.
No, it certainly does not. Read carefully, muchacho. It defines the terms Iranian and Iranic as both linguistic and genetic, racial, ethnic classifications. Linguistics is but one very important classification.
Keep denying it all you want, but you and I both know that you are not an Afghan, nor a Pashtun, nor even a Baloch. You are a Punjabi, Kashmiri, Sindhi, or Mohajir all of these peoples are descended from Hindus from India, who were forcibly converted to Islam by the Turks. Genetic testing reveals that greater than 90% of these peoples Pakistani Punjabis, Kashmiris, Sindhis, and Mohajirs are descended from lowcaste, untouchable Hindus who accepted Islam (and the remaining 10% from Hindus of other castes), and you still deny your Hindu and Indian heritage? Post a picture of yourself, and I will guarantee that you bear resemblance to Hindus more than any Turk or other Middle Easterner. These OWNAGE sessions brought to you courtesy of The Grim Reaper |
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malizai_
Sultan
Alcinous Joined: 05-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2252 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 19:33 |
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TGR
If i may humbly interject myself into this discussion, but Tele is right about where the allegiance of the pakistani pashtuns/baloch lie. It is impossible to ignore the fact that they created pakistan, along with the rest. They CREATED it, they werent subjected to it. Infact they liberated parts of Kashmir that are today free from occupation. Sikhism is another religion of Paistani origin, practiced almost exclusively outside its borders. There is some hinduism in desert atreas close to the Rajhastan state border.
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TeldeInduz
General
Joined: 07-Mar-2006 Location: Paraguay Online Status: Offline Posts: 857 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 00:37 |
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^ dont worry about the being mad part..it's a discussion forum, so different points of view should be tolerated.
That being said, I'm not wrong
 . Iranic is a generic term used to describe many people of different ethnicities and origins who happen to speak a an Iranic language. It is not a racial term or an ethnic term in any way whatsoever and I actually agree with the part of the wiki link where it says that "Iranic" is a collection of ethnic groups..In other words it's not a racial classification, which leaves it as a linguistic classification. |
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Maziar
Chieftain 
Arteshbod Joined: 06-Nov-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 1155 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Dec-2006 at 22:51 |
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[quote=Teldeinduz]
LOL!! Wiki is such a great link. Even that link contradicts what you say. Iranian peoples are all of different ethnic groups, with different ancestries, exactly as I've said before..It's not a racial classification it's a linguistic one. Now I know why you spout so much nonsense..you read wiki and form views from there![/quote]And you are wrong again, the term Iranic is about ethnic and race, and not only languages. the one who has write that article in Wikipedia must have heared it from scholars, so he hasn't cooked up the story about what is iranic. Sorry to say that my friend, you know i like you, but you are the one who tells nonsence here. Do me a favour read a book or two about what is Iranic and come back again here. And please don't be mad about me. |
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Maziar
Chieftain
Arteshbod Joined: 06-Nov-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 1155 |
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Posted: 02-Dec-2006 at 22:35 |
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Wrong, i don't know about Turkey, but i am very sure Iranians will place national identity ahead of islam. i was in Iran recently, and i have seen it. The nationalism is rising to a high level after the revolution. |
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TeldeInduz
General
Joined: 07-Mar-2006 Location: Paraguay Online Status: Offline Posts: 857 |
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Posted: 02-Dec-2006 at 17:26 |
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I wouldnt know. I haven't met many Pakistanis that claim Arab ancestry, most claim ancestry from Pakistan. Punjabis, SIndhis, and Kashmiris especially do not have Indian ancestry. Muhajirs do tend to have Indian ancestry as these were the people that crossed over at Partition from India. Perhaps they had Hindu heritage, perhaps not, but the Punjabis, Sindhis and Kashmiris do not have a Hindu or Indian ancestry. They have a Pakistani ancestry and they have a Sapta Sindhu ancestry, which is different from todays India. Ther religion was not Hinduism but Vedism, Buddhism was more the religion of Gandhara but it also was present in other parts of Pakistan.
LOL!! Get over this..I don't have Indian heritage, I don't have Iranian heritage, I don't have Arab heritage, I do have Pashtun heritage and I know my heritage is more stepennary, which is none of the above.
Afghans are definitely related to many Pakistanis ancestrally. In fact, I have Afghan relatives from both sides of the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan. The greatest concentration of Afghan people in the world is in Pakistan and always has been. The Turks generally have a favourable view of Pakistanis after the help given to Turkey by Pakistanis during the second world war. There is no doubt of Turkish ancestry of some R1a1 Pakistanis and other haplogroups in Pakistan.
LOL! You might as well give up now. My ethnicity is Afghan, and we consider ourselves as Pakistani East of the Durand Line, Afghani West of the Durand Line. The Baloch do not consider themselves as Afghan. They believe they are Arab, perhaps Syrian in ancestry, but most likely they're from round the Caspian Sea somewhere, they have too much R1a1, like a lot of other Pakistanis.
Wow! Good link from "Liberty Radio". You read it first hear, just remember that..
LOL!! Wiki is such a great link. Even that link contradicts what you say. Iranian peoples are all of different ethnic groups, with different ancestries, exactly as I've said before..It's not a racial classification it's a linguistic one. Now I know why you spout so much nonsense..you read wiki and form views from there!Edited by TeldeInduz - 02-Dec-2006 at 19:10 |
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