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Who are the ancient Macedonians ? |
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 Topic: Who are the ancient Macedonians ?Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 02:40 |
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One further thing in Herodotus he uses the word "Makednons"(plural) Now "Makednos, n, -on" = Tall, Long. But that is in its singular form.
So the term "Makednons" according to you is supposed to mean "The Talls" or "The Longs"
Herodotus states as follows in Book 1 pg.22
"...the neighborhood of Ossa and Olympus; driven from there by the Cadmeians they settled in Pindus and were known as Macednons; thence they migrated to Dryopis, and finally to the Peloponnese, where they got their present name of Dorians."
So according to you this should actually be translated to;
"... the Cadmeians they settled in Pindus and were known as The Talls; thence they migrated to Dryopis,..."
Herodotus uses the term "Makednons" as a Tribal name not as a descriptor of what they looked like!
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 02:17 |
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Originally posted by Sharrukin.
1. Despite his Greek name, Alexander was written off as a "barbarian" by the Greek athletes, the cream of the crop of Greek society.
a. Hence, it was a popular view that the Macedonians were considered barbarians.
b. it was not enough to have a Greek name. They were not impressed that this Macedonian had a Greek name. In their point of view barbarians can bare Greek names."
Sharrukin, I know this is what you posted from the beginning of the thread, but I have to ask you a few simple questions!
Where exactly does Herodotus say that the Greek competitors called Alexander a "Barbarian"? From my book I only see the word "Foreigner". The word "Xenos" has a meaning of being a stranger but it also means someone foreign or strange to the lands of Olympia or Sparta or Athens!
So if they did not know who he was would they not question his credentials? After all Alexander at that time was probably not well known by most Greeks.
Finally, can you tell me the CONTEXT for the only 2 instances that the Macedonians or Philip were called "Barbarians"? You know one for certain, Demosthenes, but what was the other one? The CONTEXT is VERY important in order to make an argument using that term! What I mean is what was the political situation at the time the Macedonians or Philip were called "Barbarian"?
Edited by Brasidas - 13-Feb-2007 at 02:19 |
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chicagogeorge
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Joined: 05-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 207 |
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 12:44 |
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A nice video archive from the encyclopedia Britannica describing the shrine of Demeter at Dion, Macedonia circa 600 bc.
http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/art-84145 I guess you will have to copy the link since I cannot hyperlink it for some reason Edited by chicagogeorge - 11-Feb-2007 at 12:52 |
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chicagogeorge
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 20:23 |
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I've also read time and again oponents of Macedonians being part of the Greek ethnos using ancient quotes that distinguish Macedonians from Hellenes. The vast majority of references could be explained as political alliance or rhetoric by the author, depending on each example. On that basis, then the following "nations" or "tribes" should be excluded from being considered Hellenes;
Examples of ancient Greek peoples occasionally or repeatedly juxtaposed to "the Greeks"(Hellenes)
Athenians:
Spartans/Lakedaimonians:
Greeks of Asia Minor, the Aegean islands, Krete, Cyprus, Central Greece, the Ionian Sea and the West:
Edited by chicagogeorge - 07-Feb-2007 at 07:26 |
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chicagogeorge
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 20:20 |
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I know that the subject of how Persian thought of Macedonians came up on previous pages, yauna takabara, which meant Greeks wearing the hat was discussed.........
Here is an interesting passage I came across posted on a different website.....Maybe it was posted by one of the forumers here:)
Mardonius says Macedonians are Greek
Whereupon Mardonius took the word, and said: "Of a truth, my lord, thou dost surpass, not only all living Persians, but likewise those yet unborn. Most true and right is each word that thou hast now uttered; but best of all thy resolve not to let the Ionians who live in Europe- a worthless crew- mock us any more. It were indeed a monstrous thing if, after conquering and enslaving the Sacae, the Indians, the Ethiopians, the Assyrians, and many other mighty nations, not for any wrong that they had done us, but only to increase our empire, we should then allow the Greeks, who have done us such wanton injury, to escape our vengeance. What is it that we fear in them?- not surely their numbers?- not the greatness of their wealth? We know the manner of their battle- we know how weak their power is; already have we subdued their children who dwell in our country, the Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself have had experience of these men when I marched against them by the orders of thy father; and though I went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself, yet not a soul ventured to come out against me to battle. (SS 2.) And yet, I am told, these very Greeks are wont to wage wars against one another in the most foolish way, through sheer perversity and doltishness. For no sooner is war proclaimed than they search out the smoothest and fairest plain that is to be found in all the land, and there they assemble and fight; whence it comes to pass that even the conquerors depart with great loss: I say nothing of the conquered, for they are destroyed altogether. Now surely, as they are all of one speech, they ought to interchange heralds and messengers, and make up their differences by any means rather than battle; or, at the worst, if they must needs fight one against another, they ought to post themselves as strongly as possible, and so try their quarrels. But, notwithstanding that they have so foolish a manner of warfare, yet these Greeks, when I led my army against them to the very borders of Macedonia, did not so much as think of offering me battle. (SS 3.) Who then will dare, O king! to meet thee in arms, when thou comest with all Asia's warriors at thy back, and with all her ships? For my part I do not believe the Greek people will be so foolhardy. Grant, however, that I am mistaken herein, and that they are foolish enough to meet us in open fight; in that case they will learn that there are no such soldiers in the whole world as we. Nevertheless let us spare no pains; for nothing comes without trouble; but all that men acquire is got by painstaking." Edited by chicagogeorge - 05-Feb-2007 at 21:15 |
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chicagogeorge
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 15:59 |
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Hello, I'm new to the forum. The subject of the ancient Macedonians interests me very much. As far as I can tell through my own research here is what we know about the ancient Macedonians culture/ethnicity;
1. The name in which they identify themselves has Greek terminology
Mak= tall or high, either referring to the highland mountains of the region, or that the Macedonians were taller. I've read some on this forum reject the notion that having a Greek terminology need not make the Macedones Greek, and the analogy of the Ethiopians being used, but this is what the ancient Greeks new these people as, not what they called themselves. We know that the Macedonians called themselves as such. It would be strange that a people be totally Hellenized to such a degree that they changed their ethnic name, with no evidence of a past identification.
2. Ancient Greek historians also considered Macedonia part of the Greek world.
 On the geography of Macedonian The great philosopher Aristotelis (Aristotle) considers the rivers in Macedonias as "rivers in the Greek world" "Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope. ..." (Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13) "The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..." (Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13) The regional names in the original Macedonian kingdom are in Greek terminology
Anthemous
Almopia Amphaxitis Bisaltia Botiaia Chakildiki Edonis Elimeia Eordaia Krestonia Lynkests Mygdonia Odomantis Orestis Paionia Pelagonia Pieria Sintiki Thassos Tymphaea 3. They are connected to other Greeks through myth. Macedon and Magnese were brothers, yet I have never heard anyone ever question the ethnicity of the Magensians.
And she of Zeus the lightning-bearer gave birth
to two sons, one was Magnes and the other Macedon who loved horses, these two who lived in the region of Pieria and Olympus. The relationship between the Macedonians and the Magnesians was familiar to the ancients, for Hesiod portrays Makedon and Magnes as brothers. It is confirmed by the fact that the name of both peoples is derived from the root mak - high, tall and by the circumstance that the Macedonians and Magnesians celebrated a festival called the Hetaireidia, unknown elsewhere.
Diodorus of Sicily in his historical description in relation to Crete:
reached Crete under the leadership of Tektamos, the son of Doros. And indeed it is said that the greater part of these peoples were gathered in the region around Mount Olympus. Strabo, referring to early tribal movements, informs us that when the Lapiths brought pressure to bear on the Aeneans and the Perrhaebi, a section of the latter retreated around the western parts of Olympus where they became proschoroi Makedosi that is neighbors of the Macedonians (3). The mythical first king of the Macedonians, Karanos (according to Pausanias), after a battle set up a triumphal trophy in accordance with the age old customs of his Argive forebears. At night a lion descended from Olympus and destroyed it. From then on, by order of Karanos, the Macedonians never again set up victory trophies
4. Their kings claim descent through royal Greek lineage
This early settlement of Macedonians near Olympus is indirectly confirmed by Thucydides who places Pieria as first among the conquests of the Temenidae. The original nucleus and center of power of the Temenidae was the kingdom of Lower Macedonia. Lower (kato) was called the coastal Macedonia of the plains, while upper (ano) was used in reference to mountainous western Macedonia.
 5. Names of Macedonian people have Greek terminology. A few Thracian and Illyrian names have been discovered in Macedonia, which would be very logical given it's geographic position, but no names of "Macedonian" origin have been recorded.
Here are some examples:
Ifestionas - Alexander's closest friend
Aristotelis - Famous phiosopher, born in Stageira Hermias - Philosopher Anaksarxos - Philosopher Marsias - Writer Zoilos - Writer Zeuxis - Painter from Heraclea Leocharis - Sculptor Lysippos - Sculptor Deinokratis - He helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt Antipatros - Historian Calisthenis - Historian Aristoboulos - Historian Aristokritos - Actor Thessalos - Actor, friend of Alexander's Argeos - Rival of king Philippos Pausanias - The man who killed king Philippos Eumenes - Alexander's secretary Lyssimachos - Alexander's bodyguard Kassandros - Army general, founded the city of Thessaloniki Ptolemeos - Army general Antigonos - Army general Selefkos - Army general Perdicas - Army general Admetos - Army commander Krateros - Phalanx commander, close friend of Alexander Arrianos - Cavalary commander Philotas - Cavalary commander Cleitos - Cavalary commander Nearchos - Navy commander Neoptolemos - Arrmy officer Python - Army officer Hippostratos - Army officer Permenion - Army officer Attalos - Army officer Kleitarxos - Army officer Polyperchon - Army officer Aristandros - Army seer Polycratis - Soldier Bolon - Soldier Koinos - Soldier Iolaos - Soldier Callisthenis 6. The calendar months are made up of Greek terminology with many months having similarities with other Dorian Greek calanders, and to a lesser extent Aeolian. To my knowledge only one month has an Ionian connection, Epidaurion. The relevance of this is that many assume Greek colonies "Hellenic" influence over Macedonia, we would see more Ionian terminologies in Macedonian months, place names, surnames.........Yet we continue to find Doric examples in the Macedonian gloss.
7. From the time of Alexander I, there is proof of Macedonians competing in the Olympics, and other Pan Hellenic games.
1. King Alexandros I in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BCE. He run the Stadion and was placed very close second. 2. King Archelaos Perdiccas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BCE and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot. 3. King Philip was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BCE, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BCE, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BCE, he was the winner of the two colt chariot. 4.Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd Olympics, in 328 BCE. 5. Damasias of Amphipolis won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BCE. 6. Lampos from Phillipi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BCE. 7.Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BCE and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BCE. 8.Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BCE. 9.During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BCE and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BCE, a woman from Macedonia won the competition. Pausanias mentions that: it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi from the seashores of Macedonia. 8. Obviously, they worshipped Greek Gods
Two quotes from Plutarch's "Alexander"
"Philip, after this vision, sent Chaeron of Megalopolis to consult the oracle of Apollo at Delphi, by which he was commanded to perform sacrifice, and henceforth pay particular honour, above all other gods, to Zeus;" "He [Alexander he Great] erected altars, also, to the gods, which the kings of the Praesians even in our time do honour to when they pass the river, and offer sacrifice upon them after the Greek manner." Histories, Chapter 16, 95.2 "Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip included in the procession statues of the twelve Gods brought with great artistry and adorned with a dazzling show of wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along with these was conducted a thirteenth statue, suitable for a god, that of Philip himself, so that the king exhibited himself enthroned among the twelve Gods." "He (King Philip) wanted as many Greeks as possible to take part in the festivities in honour of the gods, and so planned brilliant musical contests and lavish banquets for his friends and guests. Out of all Greece he summoned his personal guest-friends and ordered the members of his court to bring along as many as they could of their acquaintances from abroad." The main thing that sets the Macedonians apart from the other Greeks is their proximity to Illyria and Thrace. It would be quite logical that there was a cultural intermingling between them.
Here are some ancient quotes of how Macedonians thought of themselves.....
...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is their cause from ours ! They will be fighting for pay--- and not much of it at that; WE on the contrary shall fight for GREECE, and our hearts will be in it. As for our FOREIGN troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes --- they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia. Arrian (The Campaigns of Alexander) Alexander talking to the troops before the battle. Book 2-7 Penguin Classics. Page 112. Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did US great harm, though WE had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...]
(Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4) On this occasion, he [Alexander] made a very long speech to the Thessalians and the other Greeks, and when he saw that they encouraged him with shouts to lead them against the Barbarians, he shifted his lance into his left hand, and with his right appealed to the gods, as Callisthenes tells us, praying them, if he was really sprung from Zeus, to defend and strengthen the Greeks.
[Plutarch. Alexander (ed. Bernadotte Perrin) XXXIII]
Alexander called a meeting of his generals the next day. He told them that no city was more hateful to the Greeks than Persepolis, the capital of the old kings of Persia, the city from which troops without number had poured forth, from which first Darius and then Xerxes had waged an unholy war on Europe. To appease the spirits of their forefathers they should wipe it out, he said.
(Quintus Curtius Rufus 5.6.1)
As for Alexander, it is generally agreed that, when sleep had brought him back to his senses after his drunken bout, he regretted his actions and said that the Persians would have suffered a more grievous punishment at the hands of the Greeks had they been forced to see HIM on Xerxes' throne and in his palace.
(Quintus Curtius Rufus 5.8)
But he said, If I were not Alexandros, I should be Diogenes; that is to say: `If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things HELLENIC, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, TO PUSH THE BOUNDS OF MACEDONIA TO THE FARTHEST OCEAN, AND TO DISSEMINATE AND SHOWER THE BLESSINGS OF HELLENIC JUSTICE and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and DESIRE THAT VICTORIOUS HELLENES SHOULD DANCE AGAIN in India [...]"
[Plutarch's Moralia, On the Fortune of Alexander, 332A (Loeb, F.C Babbitt)]
There a man appeared to them, wearing a Greek cloak, and dressed otherwise in the Greek fashion, and speaking Greek also. Those [Macedonians] who first sighted him said that they burst into tears, so strange did it seem after all these miseries to see a Greek, and to hear Greek spoken. They asked whence he came, who he was; and he said that he had become separated from Alexander's camp, and that the camp, and Alexander himself, were not very far distant. Shouting aloud and clapping their hands they brought this man to Nearchus...
Arrian, "The Indica" XXXIII
Edited by chicagogeorge - 07-Feb-2007 at 18:01 |
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Hellios
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Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 09:02 |
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In ancient Macedon, especially Pella, they not only wrote, but did many more things that prove they were Hellenized, willingly it seems, according to archaeology & anthropologic evidence; they became Hellenic since ancient times, before Ptolemy.
Perhaps you're right about ancient Macedon being among the last places to become Greek, but it happened, thousands of years ago, which is why I said earlier; how far back to you wanna go? If you want, we can go back far enough to say ancient Vikings were African.
Early "Persia" was just a small part of what's today known as Iran - why don't you try going around saying ancient Iran did not become Persian thousands of years ago?  Edited by Hellios - 20-Dec-2006 at 09:18 |
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Istor the Macedonian
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Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 06:52 |
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"Here's what I'm saying. We do not have a "history written by
Macedonians" until the 4th century BC (i.e. Ptolemy I). Anything before
that was written by Greeks."
And, before and after this Macedonian history was Greek, right, mr Sharoukin? Does ANYONE argue that after 4c Macedonians' history is Greek ?? Resepct yourself !! |
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Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
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Patrinos
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Joined: 05-Sep-2006 Location: Moreas Online Status: Offline Posts: 473 |
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Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 15:56 |
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And what do you really mean?That the Greek historians falsified the truth and appeared Macedonians as Greeks?...for what reason...just to give arguments to a future Greek state to claim Macedonia? 
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"Hellenes are crazy but they have a wise God"
Kolokotronis |
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Flipper
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Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
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Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 11:44 |
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And the Macedonians didn't seem to argue about it They could have rewritten it. |
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akritas
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Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 11:16 |
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I said
and you answer
Makedonia Previous name was the "Thracian" Emathia Aige Previous name was the Brygian Bedy All the cities that built from the Macedonians before Alexander (and after Alexander in Greece) had Greek names Europos, Petra, Dion, Douriopos, Pydna, Gortynia, Aelon, Atalante, Omolio and of course only Greek archaeological findings. Macedonians that built or found from them outside from Greece cities , they had mix culture. Greek + domestic=Hellenistic. And as I said in the beginning of this thread it is difficult to believe that, at that time, a Greek royal household was in a position to conquer and rule over an alien people which spoke a different language, while surrounded by a local military aristocracy-also speaking a different language-which never desired to remove the foreign ruler, It is not only nalve to accept such an idea, it would also compel us to accept a fact for which one could not easily supply an analogy from some other country. And dont compared me again different civilizations (Russians!!!) and the most important in different geographical boundaries than the Haemus peninsula.
And what was the supported tradition that Ptolemy spoken then ? o ne from the major source of the Plutarch and Sicelus!!!! Edited by akritas - 19-Dec-2006 at 11:17 |
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Hellios
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Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 08:02 |
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Sharrukin, all your efforts for an argument that dies at around the point when ancient Macedon became Hellenized thousands of years ago.
Perhaps, instead of basing arguments on names people called each other, it's better to study the physical evidence; the ruins, artifacts, the design of ancient Pella, how it's inhabitants lived, etc, because these things can't lie, and prove that regardless of what ancient Macedon was before, it became Hellenized thousands of years ago. I think your arguments would be useful in describing the ancients of what is today called FYROM.Rgds. Edited by Hellios - 19-Dec-2006 at 08:48 |
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akritas
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Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
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Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 08:01 |
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Flipper answered you in this issue as about the barbaros etymological meaning.The people that they know and use the Greek language know very well the meaning of the barbaros in ancient times.
..and Greek ones.I gave you many examples
When we say Mycenean, we mean that these artifacts had the same manufacture way, manner e.t.c. Is not mean that was mucenean.Why must repeat the same thinks
I am not doubt
If I follow your logic then and the Athenean or the Spartan legends were not ancient writings, but Greek traditions.The Salamian battleship never happened because we have no archaelogical evidence. Was just a Greek tradition. Herodotus and Thucydides limit themselves to these traditions whenever they happen to speak of the Macedonians past and the foundations of their realm while Euripides makes of the Macedonian legendas he does of others belonging to Greek prehistory, a subject for dramatic poetry. Historians, chroniclers and biographers from the middle of the 4th century on, caught up in the dazzle of events almost beyond human ken, which occurred during the reigns of Philip and Alexander destined to change the fate of Greece and the whole course of her history, had but to collect, or on occasion to link in a more fascinating way, the legends and traditions concerning the founder of the glorious, and by then renowned Argaed dynasty, to the beginning of the state, for which so splendid a destiny has been reserved.
We speak for the Macedonia core and not the whole Macedonia boundaries as built in Philip reign.
the problem is these museums(Greek) show only the Greek,Illyrian and Brygians fractions.We dont have find something diffrent.
I was tried to say that before Vergina findings the people that had support the non-Greekness of the ancient Macedonians were many and the period include the pro-4th century period. After the Vergina this period now beggining in 5th cent and before. as about the Macedonian names and "Ptolemy" history I will answer you soon. Edited by akritas - 19-Dec-2006 at 08:12 |
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Flipper
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Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 23:59 |
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You miss the fact that the word is a repetition of "βαρ" and therefore synomym to τραυλίζω (stutter). From a linguistic perspective it is absurd to have a repetitive word meaning something else, while you have the word Ξένος/Ξήνος which litterarly means stranger. And even if that was the case, the statement about them was made when earlier and at the same time the word was used against other Hellenes. In other words it falls in the categories mentioned in the quotes in my previous post.
The archeological evidence on the specific areas of their motherland change drastically in the specific time we examine. He doesn't state anything opposite to his previous opinion which makes the above statement an hypothesis not a fact. There is a full report on Achaic artifacts I will extract gradually (600 pages).
Yes, we do have non-Greek traditions dating from earlier periods, but they continue to persist into the Temenid period. According to the art historian Olga Palagia of the University of Athens, the Macedonians were like "a sponge, absorbing a variety of surrounding cultures." (Borza, 1999, pages 32-33, personal communication). These influences then steadily wane in the wake of Hellenization until sometime in the Hellenistic period, when Macedonia becomes just as Greek as the south.
We're not talking anymore about Macedonian King quotes but for random inscriptions and dedications. Since I'm at work, i will start with the following conserning a general. Δάμων Νικάνορος Μακεδὼν ἀπὸPatrida: Is used when reffering to your country. Tous loipous Makedonas kai tous allous Ellinas: The Macedonians and the other Greeks. His sympathetic action to the motherland, the Macedonians and the other Greeks. Macedonians and the other Greeks having the same motherland. Obviously Hellas. He doesn't include himself only but the rest of his people. More to come... Edited by Flipper - 19-Dec-2006 at 04:08 |
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 22:42 |
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akritas
But you do realise that Strabo (in his own context) is not giving anything to justify his conviction except by stating that it was his opinion, right? We already have 8 centuries before him, as to how the term "barbarian" was used, enough for scholars to define the term quite clearly!!! That evidence contradicts Strabo, so we must take his statement just the way he said it, as his opinion.
They disappeared about 800 BC, followed by the Illyrian evidence.
The Mycenaean evidence is considered either as "imports" or as "imitations", prior to the Brygian Lausitz period.
Which is Brygian.
Let's be precise on this. Those legends are not "ancient writings", they are "traditions". The "Caranus tradition" is discounted by most specialists in Macedonian studies, including Hammond. Hence, no "Macedonian kingship" before about 650 BC. Therefore, no overlap with the preceding Brygian and Illyrian periods.
I do not deny a Greek presence before the Temenid period. As a matter of fact, even I've given a catalogue of various Greek influences in Macedonia. This actually proves my point: there were Greek influences from various quarters during the period when Macedonia was predominantly non-Greek in culture in the earlier Iron Age. Hellenization can be better explained by these various lines of Greek presence without having to postulate a Greek identity to the Macedonians.
Of which there is no evidence. The growth of trade created opportunities for contact with other peoples, facilitated cultural interaction and contributed to the Renaissance inaugurated from the 2nd quarter of the 8th cent B.C. A fairly one-sided point-of-view. Hammond characterised the earlier "sub-Mycenaean" period (Lausitz) as a period of relative prosperity and political organization. It was only in the Illyrian period that life became much more simpler, with tribal units replacing local provincial organization, while on the coast we have Greek colonies.
See above.
That is right, we are speaking about the period before the Macedonian Kingdom (beginning about 650 BC). It therefore becomes quite academic when we consider that where some of the Macedonians were located, these regions were part of the earlier non-Greek cultures.
Utterly false. In the 8th century, Macedonia was dominated by the Illyrian Glasinac Culture (c. 800-650 BC). Perhaps a remnant of that influence were the Macedonian Lyncestians, said by Strabo as being Illyrian. In the earlier Macedonian period, non-Greek traditions were still quite strong. It was only in the Hellenistic period when the Greek tradition predominated.
Then you have a one-sided view of evidence. Unfortunate.
I never denied the Greek influence. But, I would rather view things in proper context, in proper balance.
No, but so what? Even museums will only show a fraction of what they have collected, and for better or for worse, what is displayed does not necessarily represent the true proportion of those sites actually contain.
I did not understand what you were trying to say. Can you please rephrase it?
Here's what I'm saying. We do not have a "history written by Macedonians" until the 4th century BC (i.e. Ptolemy I). Anything before that was written by Greeks.
No, they didn't. Please specify. We do know that Greek place-names proliferate much later, especially in places where non-Greek tribes used to inhabit, but like I've written much earlier there had been a Greek presence in Macedonia since at least the 8th century. Greeks were settling in various places in Macedonia along side non-Greek peoples. Like today, a travellor in these mountainous regions can visit four different villages speaking four different languages. Why there were later Greek place-names can be better explained by Greek settlements rather than by Macedonian conquest. |
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Sharrukin
Chieftain
Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 21:08 |
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Flipper
And again, from the very beginning of the archaic literary record, the term "barbarian" was used to describe non-Greeks. All other terms are much later in date.
Hammond was always positive about the Hellenic origin of the Macedonians, but just as the archaeological evidence had become more available, and carefully studied, the less he became willing to judge it as being Greek, at least until the time of the arrival of the Temenidae (c. 650 BC).
Yes, we do have non-Greek traditions dating from earlier periods, but they continue to persist into the Temenid period. According to the art historian Olga Palagia of the University of Athens, the Macedonians were like "a sponge, absorbing a variety of surrounding cultures." (Borza, 1999, pages 32-33, personal communication). These influences then steadily wane in the wake of Hellenization until sometime in the Hellenistic period, when Macedonia becomes just as Greek as the south.
Again, only the Macedonian king used that term. Nothing is said about how the Macedonians saw themselves as Greeks. Edited by Sharrukin - 18-Dec-2006 at 21:18 |
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Hellios
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Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 14:41 |
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How far back in time does he or she wanna go?
 Go back far enough, yes, the various tribes that became Hellenic were previously something unique, just look at the Minoans! Go back further and you can argue Greeks were African!  Your argument dies however, when you reach the point when ancient Macedon became Hellenized, and remained so for thousands of years. Proof of this is far more concrete than these ambiguous excerpts from old scripts people are posting.
Edited by Hellios - 18-Dec-2006 at 16:02 |
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Istor the Macedonian
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Joined: 28-Apr-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 68 |
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Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 13:54 |
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That influence was natural. Macedonians being Greeks, were living near or amongst non-Greeks and they influenced and were inluenced by peoples around. Nothing wrong.
This is true fo all (southern or not) Greece. The point is that if we deny Macedonians' Greekness then we shall invent another Greek tribe who lived in Macedonia and gave all those Greek toponyms in the region. When Macedonians conguered Vedy (Phrygian) they changed the name to Edessa for it wasn't Greek. If we believe Strabo, the older name of Macedonia was Emathia. This is a Greek name whose origin is in Homer. Toponyms like Aliakmon, Orestis, Elimeia, Vokeritis, Aiani, Argos, Keletron, Kellee, .... are louding about Macedonians' Greekness. |
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Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
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Hellios
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Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 11:29 |
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The Hellenic city-states called each other a bunch of names. "Barbarian" was also used to insult some of the more "barbaric" Hellenic city-states. Don't base history on insults!
Please have a look at my earlier posts(s).
Rgds. Edited by Hellios - 19-Dec-2006 at 07:49 |
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Flipper
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Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
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Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 11:23 |
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I'm trying to find a refference about the Μεγάρειος Γέλωτας (The Megarian laugh). It is mentioned in a minor text that I can't find online. The Athenians, called the Megarians barbarians because, while attending theater they were making too much noise when laughing and they left behind them garbage. I'm trying to find an online refference, so stay tuned on this one.
However, I have some nice comments about the use of the word barbarian by the Spartans. And yes, Akritas, I gave a theoretical usage but we shouldn't forget how we use the word today. Empirically the word barbaros in koine/demotic is in practice used for uncivilized behaviours of a person or a group. Also the phrace "Βάρβαρος λαός" means litterarly "Uncivilized nation". On Larcher's notes on Herodotus: Historical and critical comments on the history of Herodotus i read the following comment: "It appears that it was not to all the barbarians indiscriminately that the Lacedaemonians gave this name, but only to their enemies." "Ξένοι, οι πολέμιοι, says Hesychius. The enemies are foreigners." As for the Spartan view on the Megarians. "The Megarians were not held in high estimation; witness the oracle which was pronounce to them and which is quoted by Suidas, the scholiast of Theocritus, and Tzetzes." Υμείς δ'ω Μεγαρείς ούτε τρίτοι, ούτε τέταρτοι ούτε δυοδέκατοι, ουτ έν λύγω, ουτ εν αριθμώ. Megarians, you are neither the third, nor the fourth, nor the twelfth; no account is taken of you and you occupy no rank whatever.As we can see the Spartans used heavy words for their enemies. The word "Ξένοι" which has a more accurate meaning that "Βαρβαροι" is used for any of their enemies. Furthermore we have more examples of Spartan anger angainst their enemies. Thucydides writes: Οι γαρ Λακεδαιμόνιοι, επειδή το χωρίον βία ουχ ηλίσκετο, δείσαντες των Αθηναίοις το τολμηρόν και την νεωτεροποιίαν, και αλλόφυλους άμα ηγησάμενοιOn Christie Davies book "Jokes and Their Relation to Society" page 33 i read: A few cases will be considered here but a more thorough testing of the hypothesis would require the skills of professional classicists and specialists in ancient history. Those who were the butts of jokes about stupidity for the ancient Greeks were in the main not barbarians,but inhabitants of Greek colonies and cities far away from the core of Greek civilization in Greece itself. Settlements at the edge of greek civilization surrounded by land and in consequence influenced and penetrated by non-Greek peoples. We also have an example in Platos `Protagoras`, when Prodicus called Pittacus Lesbian progue `barbarian`. He didn't mean that he didn't speak greek but that it was difficult to understand him. Mytelene was never characterized as a place out of the boundaries out of Hellas. And when it comes to political speaches similar to the one of Demosthenes, we have the Spartan Brasidas speech to the Acanthians (Thucydides again): Acanthians, the Lacedaemonians have sent out me and my army to make good the reason that we gave for the war when we began it, viz. that we were going to war with the Athenians in order to FREE HELLAS .So, the Athenians are not Greeks with the same logic. The true Hellenes are not greek because the Spartans say so? Ofcourse not. They were Hellenes but they were enemies and non Dorians (thats were the race is aquired). And ofcourse, the retorics of Brasidas is almost identical with the retorics of Demosthenes.  Now, lets see a more critical analysis from modern historians. Errington, A History of Macedonia, p4 Accusations of Macedonians being barbarians started in Athens and they were the result of political fabrications based on the Macedonian way of life and not on their ethnicity or language. Demosthenes traveled to Macedonia twice for a total of nine months. He knew very well what language the Macedonians were speaking. We encountered similar behavior with Thrasyboulos. He states that the Acarnanians were barbarians only when the Athenians encountered a conflict of political interest from the Acarnanians. The Macedonian way of life differed in many ways from the southern Greek way of life, but that was very common among the Western Greeks such as Chaones, Molossians, Thesprotians, Acarnanians, Aetolians and Macedonians.As for my earlier comments on the macedonian culture based on archeological findings I have one more comment from Wilckens book "Alexander the Great", page 23 Macedonian state institutions were similar to those of the Mycenean and Spartan.That's for now. I'm waiting for a number of up2date sources from an archeologist. Stay tuned... Edited by Flipper - 18-Dec-2006 at 11:47 |
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