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conon394
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Topic: Your Army Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 16:07 |
canon394;
True logistics back then were simpler, but even then
generally most armys were equipped in reletivly standard ways. The manner of
supply of archers and slingshot men are different, the procedures for fabricating
are completely different, for spears you need wood and tips of a different
type than arrows. Unless the equipment is standadised its very unlikely they
can sustain a campiagn for long. THough I'll accept that in many cases it was
only for a few battles that an army was raised.
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I’d say you are still vastly overstating the logistical
issues involved. A slinger needs what a sling and either rocks or lead bullets.
Casting lead is hardly difficult, I really doubt that any competent blacksmith
otherwise attacked to an ancient army with the job or making repairing all
types of weapons could not do it – frankly it was likely an apprentice’s job.
For spears or javelins of any type in say the Hellenistic world
the preferred wood was ash or cornel so again are you really suggesting a wood
worker not fabricate rods of different lengths and sizes of poles.
Overall big invasions in the Ancient world oven featured a
fairly heterogonous mix of troops - take Alexander’s initial invasion force or
the Athenian army sent to Syracuse.
Alexander’s army offers and even better point since even it’s most
nominally standard units the Macedonian cavalry and infantry – used completely different
arms at different times – javelins, lances, sarissa, spears etc…
Also one should not underestimate the simple fact that ‘living
of the land’ in the ancient world could likely provide very many if not most of
armies needs – not just food. By contrast one is probably not likely to find
Main battle tank parts laying around in a farm….
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 06:32 |
Heres a good link on the logistics of ancient states.
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 05:39 |
Old Kingdom soldiers were equipped with a variety of weapons including knives/daggers, maces, spears, and bows. Leather shields were quite popular during the era. During the 19th dynasty the Egyptians had a combination of scale, leather, and cloth armour. Charioteers often wore scale armour. The Egyptians tended to take what other nations had. One example is the adoption of the composite bow when the Hyksos began to supply them in their armies. The navy became increasingly important during the Middle Kingdom. During the New Kingdom, Egypt had a strong enough military to defend itself against the sea-peoples and other tribes along their borders.
Kilts were popular among the region.
I read a good book about the 18th dynasty military but I forgot what it was called...
Edited by Darius of Parsa - 06-Aug-2008 at 05:52
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What is the officer problem?
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TheARRGH
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 05:33 |
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa
Not only were they good fighters, but they were also good doctors. Egyptian herbalists and doctors were brought along on military campaigns as well.
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Well, at least I'm not completely ignorant of Egyptian military matters; I knew about the doctors. What does it say about the European dark ages that people hundreds of years ago were better healers? Wasn't the typical kit for an Egyptian soldier something like Wicker Shield, spear and/or mace, and kilt? I'm trying to remember--I seem to recall it being something like that.
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 05:28 |
The Egyptian navy was one of the three best navies, according to the
Persians. The Egyptian, Phoenician, and Ionian navies were considered
top-notch. The navy is what brought many coastal cities on the Mediterranean and Aegean under Persian control. The Persian navy nearly brought mainland Greece to their knees. Not only were they good fighters, but they were also good doctors. Egyptian herbalists and doctors were brought along on military campaigns as well.
Edited by Darius of Parsa - 06-Aug-2008 at 05:32
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TheARRGH
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 05:19 |
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa
They did have great victories against other peoples, such as the Libyans, Nubians, Canaanites, Hittites, Mitanni, Assyrians, Babylonians and a list of other peoples and nations. To call the Egyptians a non-impressive military force is blaspheme in my opinion. At the time of Cambyses, the Persians recognized Egypt one of the last remaining "big threat" in the ancient world.
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I guess you're right...I suppose I'm just taking the wrong perspective here. I'm probably thinking a little bit too much about "military might" as defined by the Romans and so forth... I need to learn more about the military capacities of Middle Eastern states...about the only ones I know anything about in that area were the Persians (and Sassanids and Parthians), and the Hittites. I had no idea they were so highly regarded by the Persians.
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 05:11 |
Originally posted by TheARRGH
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa
True. But I am quite fond of loose formations. The trauma dealt by a mace would be devastating. Although it does not have the cutting power, it does have the kinetic energy needed to cause great damage. Mace cavalry use longer maces to cleave down enemy infantry. The Egyptians and Persians were both great users of the mace and used it to win many of their battles.
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Well, far be it from me to cast aspersions on a formula that worked.
then again, the Persians had a lot of cavalry--the mace tends to work better for cav than for the humble men-at-arms on their own two feet.
And...no offense to the Egyptians, but they were not that terribly impressive a military power. they won quite a lot, but not against the Persians, Macedonians, and many conquerors after. I wouldn't blame that on a use of Maces--tactics, training, and logistics matter much more than just weaponry. But they may not be the best role models as far as a choice of equipment.
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They did have great victories against other peoples, such as the Libyans, Nubians, Canaanites, Hittites, Mitanni, Assyrians, Babylonians and a list of other peoples and nations. To call the Egyptians a non-impressive military force is blaspheme in my opinion. At the time of Cambyses, the Persians recognized Egypt one of the last remaining "big threats" of the ancient world.
Edited by Darius of Parsa - 06-Aug-2008 at 05:20
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TheARRGH
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 04:57 |
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa
True. But I am quite fond of loose formations. The trauma dealt by a mace would be devastating. Although it does not have the cutting power, it does have the kinetic energy needed to cause great damage. Mace cavalry use longer maces to cleave down enemy infantry. The Egyptians and Persians were both great users of the mace and used it to win many of their battles.
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Well, far be it from me to cast aspersions on a formula that worked. then again, the Persians had a lot of cavalry--the mace tends to work better for cav than for the humble men-at-arms on their own two feet. And...no offense to the Egyptians, but they were not that terribly impressive a military power. they won quite a lot, but not against the Persians, Macedonians, and many conquerors after. I wouldn't blame that on a use of Maces--tactics, training, and logistics matter much more than just weaponry. But they may not be the best role models as far as a choice of equipment.
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 04:42 |
True. But I am quite fond of loose formations. The trauma dealt by a mace would be devastating. Although it does not have the cutting power, it does have the kinetic energy needed to cause great damage. Mace cavalry use longer maces to cleave down enemy infantry. The Egyptians and Persians were both great users of the mace and used it to win many of their battles.
Edited by Darius of Parsa - 06-Aug-2008 at 04:51
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TheARRGH
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 04:26 |
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa
Well...It comes down to my tactics. Most of my army is lightly armoured, perfect for surrounding and overwhelming heavier close-ranked formations. Maces and axes can be used to cut paths into enemy formations, allowing lighter troops to follow, such as my curved-sword infantry. Maces as you said, are hard-hitting, capable of breaking skulls in one blow.
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True, but from what I understand, maces require more of a wind-up than an axe or something similar--for the simple reason that a mace has to rely on blunt force, while an edged weapon focuses whatever force there is to a point. That's why axes were so widely used (besides the ease with which an axe could be made): they are weapons which hit with significant force, but can be light and quick and, often, don't require a large swing in order to be effective--because your force is amplified/focused by the edge. Then again, maces are a LOT cheaper, and they were used quite a bit--so maybe I'm just being nitpicky. Plus, I have to admit a slight bias: I like axes. As you can see from my army. Still, I do feel that maces are a little limiting...they're like warclubs, you need a looser formation and room to swing, and that can be problematic.
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 02:03 |
Originally posted by TheARRGH
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa
Originally posted by Count Belisarius
Hey the thread is about your army not jokes. I don't think Darius appreciates this. |
Very true.
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My apologies, Darius.
...Personally, I'm still trying to figure something out about logistics, because while I'd like to flesh out the whole "army" theme, I'm not really able to do so without knowing more about..well..how armies were/are supplied.
However...
I'm intrigued as to what made you pick maces as a highly featured weapon in your army. They're definitely easy to make and can be hard-hitting, but they don't seem like the most effective military weapon if you're in a close-ranked formation.
...Then again, that's what they always say about axes...
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These are just things you "may" include. You do not have to go into logistics if you do not want to, totally your choice.
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What is the officer problem?
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Seko
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 02:00 |
I'm glad you guys worked out some of your sensitivities. I wouldn't want to get in the way of a fine truce. I do have something pertinent to say though. We appreciate the opening of new topics and tend to support them in general. However, there is no rule that says the one who opens a thread owns it. The threads are for all members to participate in and it is our duty as staff members to monitor them. Threads tend to veer off the original topic and when they do we trust you, the membership, will bring things back on track, which you successfully have done here. If and when the staff do go off on tangents, sometimes being funny and sometimes not, then bear with us. We like to act silly too at times, even 'message board administrators'. Oh, and by the way, a little brown nosing never did hurt!
Continue with the discussion.
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 01:37 |
Well...It comes down to my tactics. Most of my army is lightly armoured, perfect for surrounding and overwhelming heavier close-ranked formations. Maces and axes can be used to cut paths into enemy formations, allowing lighter troops to follow, such as my curved-sword infantry. Maces as you said, are hard-hitting, capable of breaking skulls in one blow.
Edited by Darius of Parsa - 06-Aug-2008 at 01:40
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What is the officer problem?
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TheARRGH
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 01:19 |
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa
Originally posted by Count Belisarius
Hey the thread is about your army not jokes. I don't think Darius appreciates this. |
Very true.
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My apologies, Darius. ...Personally, I'm still trying to figure something out about logistics, because while I'd like to flesh out the whole "army" theme, I'm not really able to do so without knowing more about..well..how armies were/are supplied. However... I'm intrigued as to what made you pick maces as a highly featured weapon in your army. They're definitely easy to make and can be hard-hitting, but they don't seem like the most effective military weapon if you're in a close-ranked formation. ...Then again, that's what they always say about axes...
Edited by TheARRGH - 06-Aug-2008 at 01:21
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 00:40 |
Originally posted by Count Belisarius
Hey the thread is about your army not jokes. I don't think Darius appreciates this. |
Very true.
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What is the officer problem?
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 00:37 |
Hey the thread is about your army not jokes. I don't think Darius appreciates this.
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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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TheARRGH
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Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 23:52 |
Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I'm surprised you'd need to arse-kiss.
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I'm surprised you didn't realize I was joking.
Edited by TheARRGH - 05-Aug-2008 at 23:53
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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C.C.Benjamin
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Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 23:50 |
Originally posted by TheARRGH
Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Yawn...it wasn't funny when the first person did it.
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It's always funny when the administrator does it. |
No, that makes it less funny. As a position of power, "message board administrator" ranks pretty low, I'm surprised you'd need to arse-kiss.
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Know thyself
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TheARRGH
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Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 22:21 |
Originally posted by Seko
This army would be led by one of history's most notorious Count. |
...CHOCULA?!! @Sparten: I'm assuming Pacific/Northwest sort of climate and terrain. But that's mostly moot; My real question is more in the area of "where can I go/what should I read to get a better idea of the various fiddly details of logistics?"
Edited by TheARRGH - 05-Aug-2008 at 22:22
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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Seko
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Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 22:18 |
Those darn admins are some of the biggest trolls too.
When my sub has a biting force of 10-18 tonnes...well that pretty much takes the cake as the coolest navy around.
Ok, I'm sure some of you want me outta here with my twisted and senseless humour. I'll leave this innocent thread in peace. Just one parting phrase: Long live the megalodon!
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